Brainwarp questions for Pimax


#1

@xunshu I have asked these questions on numerous occasions in the forum and never received an answer. I am going to try creating a new topic in the hope of at least an acknowledgement that you are reading them.

  1. Have you had Brainwarp working in any of the previous prototypes?
  2. Will Brainwarp be included in M1?
  3. Is Brainwarp seen as a way to mitigate the 90Hz issue if that cannot be solved?

I think I speak for many forum members in asking that you please acknowledge these questions even if it’s negative i.e. Brainwarp is not functional. I would rather know this than be kept in the dark.

Thank you in anticipation of a response :grinning:


#2

You asked for nothing, they will still ignore everything related to BrainWarp, we tried to ask them so many times and yet they haven’t gave us any meaningful updates. Ain’t dat right @xunshu.


#3

@xunshu: I believe the guys have a point here, you have typically responded that you need to check with the team - and then we hear nothing back.

Please give us the current status of Brainwarp as it works with the V5 / M1. Or otherwise tell us openly that Pimax will not update us now on Brainwarp (which many backers may interpret as meaning that it probably will not be made available for the 8K at release/ever, or will not perform as desired).


#4

3…2…1
Radio silence

Go


#5

Nothing to report im asuming


#6

Expect a 80hz headset. I saw no proof of working brainwarp anywhere. Everytime someone asks - silence.
To me it is in the category “marketing mumbo jumbo” just like the smell module and all the other crap they announced.
I think we can be happy if they release a half decent 80hz wide FOV headset by the end of this year.

This might sound negative but I think it is simply being realistic.


#7

I’m a software developer. Years ago I used to write drivers for printers, scanners, mice, and video cards. There’s nothing particularly difficult with writing software like brainwarp (at least based on the public info). My concern is that it might trigger nausea or headaches.

I wish Pimax was more open about what’s going on with their development.


#8

@colgate1974 - I doubt they will ever tell you, brainwarp is a software trick designed to overcome the limitations of an LCD display, wich due to its intrinsic limitations could hardly go beyond real 60-75 Hz of true refresh rate, so they prefer not to give out too many tech details to avoid users speculating about the problem.

Just look at the new Oculus Go, with all the money FB can afford to invest in research, it is 75Hz, why ? Because it’s an LCD, any serious display technology currently in development will only consider improved and new types of OLED display that can go up to any refresh rate speed you want (up to 1000Hz) , providing they will remove the artificial limitations of these display, that are kept to low values for more occult reasons that are too long to explain in a forum.

Okay, Pimax is now using a new type of panel tech (CLPL), but as far I see it, it is still a modified LCD technology, probably overdriven and overclocked to reach higher refresh rates with lower persistence liquid crystals, but it has the same limitations, hence this is why you need the software tricks like brainwarp.

Furthermore, brainwarp is a software trick to induce the brain think there’s a doubled framerate, what do we know about the possible adverse effects it could have on different types of users? It should be tested by competent people and with knowledge in optical physics, to be sure it is totally safe.


#9

Where did they come up with the idea of a Brainwarp anyway?
At first I just figured, since it’s merely a software feature, that they just aquired the outputting style from some other dude or company that perfected it. Or bluntly stole the idea, since it’s a simple concept.

But if it was indeed just a marketing promise… That’s bad form


#10

The oculus go is 75hz not necesarrily only because of panel speed. It is powered by a SnapDragon 821 from 2016.

It is not some magic pixel pushing power house.

Fact is OLED is heavily flawed.
The pixel lag from off to on is nearly astronomical when it comes to VR application and some of the most ground breaking software they have been working on was the predictive algorythms to pre drive the panels pixels. But as with all organics no panel is like another, this is a huge problem on the LG tv’s as well.

Going LCD means they get to do more with less for less.
And apart from the one thing that sets OLED apart, the true blacks, the blacks that oculus disables on the cv1, non Pentile LCD’s will look better than their Pentile OLED counterparts since they actually have full colour representation in each pixel subgroup. The resolution on either the vive 1 or cv1 would have been perceptively better if they had gone with full |RGB|RGB| panels, rather than Pentile which does something like |RG|BG|, leaving you with almost half the actual resolution for non green colours.

But the eyes percieves half the red and blue colours compared to green anyway so, let’s save some money eh?..


#11

Artificially flawed, yes, but this is another story…anyway many OLED panels can do up to 100-120Hz easily, the new panel from Google/LG is said to reach 120, they are just starting to push the limitations because the VR market is needing it, Oculus LCD is 75Hz because that is the limit you can reach with liquid crystals, a very optimistic limit in any case, considering most panels of this type have up to 20ms pixel color transition timing, and that the 1-2 ms most companies advertise is just grey-to-grey transition time, counting almost nothing in real world performance.

P.S.- I have the LG OLED Tv , and it is stunning with games, way smoother than any LCD or QLED, where you can easily notice image stuttering all the time, especially in 3D image mode.


#12

To me Brainwarp sounds very simple to code.
I don’t think the problem is coding Brainwarp and they wouldn’t have promoted it so much in the KS if they weren’t pretty sure it would be easy to code.

I think it must cause nausea or something.


#13

to me it looks like your on a kind of FUD campaign. On many occasions you claim LCDs can not go faster than 60 to 75Hz refresh rate but only OLED can. A proper source for that claim is lacking and it is in stark contrast to the 144Hz monitors that are sold today. I don’t know what tricks LCD manufacturers have up in their sleves today, and actually I don’t really care. But at least i found an article from back in 2013 where there was a clear statement that super fast LCDs are doable.
And here is sth to educate himself for current state of affairs
Please don’t extrapolate your personal findings in bad LCD-TVs vs OLED–TVs making it a law of nature. :wink:


Question: Was the Kickstarter prototype a huge fraud?
#14

I suggest you gain more tech information and knowledge about LCD’s and other technologies, mine are not speculations, read some tech white papers (don’t take the junk in wikipedia too seriously tough…find real tech wihite papers aimed to display tech personnel) and you will see what I mean. :slight_smile:

144Hz advertised panels are just marketing mumbo-jumbo, and again…they just use software tricks and special algorithms to give you the impression they are pumping out these refresh rates, when in the real world they are NOT. (notice that 144 is double 72Hz) it was made to render LCD’s viable for 3D shutter glasses visualization (that…again, blocks one user’s eye at a time…reminds you something ?..)

I’m just being realistic, after knowing today’s display pro and cons of the various technologies available, the choices that tech companies make do not always benefit the end user, and they are also limited to what they can or can not reveal or use before these tech are approved for “public consumption”.

FUD is totally meaningless in this subject :slight_smile: , and…the article you linked is old research, it mentioned the possibility of reaching 30ms swithching time, well…today’s LCD have around the same, just slightly better, 20ns, but it is waaay still too slow to achieve 120Hz real response time, just do the math for 1 second and guess how many FPS you can get, even that, in a game engine real world performance, it’s even more complicated.


#15

Can you explain it please then? I’m still HIGHLY confused by what brainwarp is even supposed to be. It does not make any sense AT ALL to me. I’d say the whole idea would only make sense if you could have the game render per eye, but I think that’s not possible. I think the Steam API delivers both eyes at the same time to the HMD. Of course you could then just introduce a half frame timing difference between displaying them but that doesn’t make much sense since they both show the same frame. Alternatively, you could try to ‘predict’ the next frame but I highly doubt this would work well. So I’m still highly confused as to what’s Brainwarp is even supposed to be. I think Pimax is as confused, that’s why we haven’t heard anything.

I don’t see this as something that’s going to work. Ever. Or am I missing something here?


#16

@sjefdeklerk Good point…

It works in a similar way to 3D with shutter glasses/polaryzed glasses, images are alternatively sent to one eye only, giving the impression of having double the frame rate, it can also be used coupled with algorithms to give the user the impression of multiple planes of depth (for 3D in this case)

I would not rely too much on brainwarp in any case, as it could be a trouble to make it compatible with current VR software, Steam VR included.

To me it would be enough if Pimax just stays with the current 80Hz of this CLPL panel, it is already more than sufficient for a great experience on the 8K, resolution wise and FOV wise it will be spectacular in any case, every other minor problem will be second tought for most users…then if they can get better panels and technologies, they can switch to that with minimal efforts.

The real important matter and question here is, they need to get REAL 80Hz, or even 75, without any tricks.


#17

Yep, that article just confirms what I already explained here :smiley:


#18

Yes that’s what Pimax says but if the game can’t supply single eye renders, then I don’t see the point.


#19

@sjefdeklerk There’s no point in fact, they’re just advertising their product like most companies do, but the truth probably is they aren’t going to use brainwarp in the final product, because like you said, games would need to be adapted for it, and I doubt developers would even consider making titles aimed at Piplay only.

Just let’s wait and see what Pimax will be able to do with this new CLPL panel technology, there is almost no info on the net on such panels, probably a very recent technology, if they make it to 80Hz with the same or better quality of the 4K, and with no to low ghosting, it will be a winner in any case.

My point here is: people need to understand what they are going to buy, not to just wait and get “the meal” as soon as it is served, this is a very sad way to being just consumers (even the word tells everything…), just be aware of what you want and ask to ANY company, start pretending better things, because in fact they only sell if people want and buy something…the sad thing is that most people just wait to buy anything new, even if it is nearly the same shit or with a little thing added here and there, an example ? Most today’s smartphones, every year new models with nothing really new added to it…just 85% hype and marketing rubble.

If we were smarter, refusing these products, like for example the Vive Pro, that are even overpriced 3 times it’s cost, no one would go buy these products and every company will instantly start making the products people really want and ask !..but to ask, you need to be informed first, and know the technology available, that sometimes is even not made public or used in any commercial product !!

Like I said in another thread…we have the power to pretend and change ANYTHING as consumers, and it is a fuckin’ BIG power ! Few realizes this…


#20

All hmd WMR except samsung have lcd displays with a frequency of 60/90 Hz