Brainwarp questions for Pimax


#21

don’t know what cherry picking and bending of info was used for ur claims. ;tldr;

just caring about readers in general, so…

takeaway should have been gray2gray and black-white-black transitions in LCDs are easily doable for 250Hz refresh rates and standard monitors use 60Hz but exceptions exist. For flicker free LCDs at 120Hz full blacks were introduced. So LCDs do easily 120Hz refresh.

Many other “Eizo” exceptions today with full picture come as G-Sync and FreeSync Monitors with native res refresh rates way beyond 90Hz.

What is doable for small high res LCDs in 2018 is only speculation, but that should be a given: it’s rather better than worse.

beyond that: waste of time
:fish::fish::fish::fish::fish:


#22

The grey-to-grey and black-to-white transitions count almost nothing in real world use, while the second counts very little…color transitions take way longer than that, around 20ms, I hate to repeat myself again and again, do you realize you’re even contradicting the same info on the article you mentioned in the link?

It is possible that the very lastest LCD tech has been improved further (like maybe Pimax’s adopted CLPL) but I really doubt it is anything lower than 12-15ms because liquid crystals take time to move, it’s just their physical limit, there is no continuous pixel refresh like organic leds, they just STAY ON and transition to another state when the pixel need to be changed.
Do you play your VR games in black and white or grey scale ? Of course not…so…

Any other advertised thing is mostly marketing mumbo-jumbo, and Nvidia G-Sync or AMD Freesync has nothing to do with what we are talking about, these are only methods to sync the graphic card frames to the monitor refresh better, wihout losing or skipping frames and causing what is called the “tearing” effect, that most people can notice playing with V-Sync off. :slight_smile:

In fact, many gaming monitors are just normal monitors with some added software algorithm (Freesync) or a chip doing the sync to the GPU (nvidia), ridiculously overpriced, and with many negative features, like for example huge light leakage from the LCD backlighting, and lowest blacks of the category, still…they are sold like being “premium” things (almost a scam, believe me…).

Inform yourself better, don’t just repeat what you read on the announcements, advertised sources, and paid reviews, companies are continuously trying to push their products by just telling partial info or plain nonsense, to trick the users into buy anything, convinced their product is better, when in fact it is NOT.

I’m not saying that OLED’s are the display eldorado, but are well known to be better in almost anything required for VR displays (higher TRUE refresh rate, more vivid colors, real deep blacks, no need to use color filters or backlighting etc.) even that…there is much disinfo on that technology too, and these are kept artificially limited because otherwise it would become a too perfect technology and any other product would no longer be possible to sell, just know this, and LG upcoming high density micro oled will even render the screen-door effect these display commonly suffer almost a thing of the past, with even higher refresh rates.


#23

@xunshu was it something I said :disappointed:?


#24

@colgate1974 LOL, don’t worry mate, it’s just tech talk…I would be happy to be denied, but as long as there is no clear and verifiable proof of this, it will only be cheap talk.

I am totally excited about the work Pimax is doing, they are some of the very few trying to make what VR users really want and dream, but clearly there is still room for improvement.


#25

If one eye has pic other not in a measured sec 90 pics per eye this does not make 180 hz just a dull 90 , is this brainwarp or what,lol


#26

Yes that’s my idea too. It will simply add black frames to the same time period and therefor darken the overall image. Might reduce ghosting though.


#27

With Brainwarp the computer would have to do twice (rendering the two eyes, not one) as much work twice as fast, it is unfeasible.


#28

Exactly.I think either brainwarp just introducese black screens, like said above. In that case it will only result in darker image and a bit less ghosting. Other method would cost twice computing power and wouldn’t make much sense neither. So this whole brainwarp idea, it just does not make any sense if you ask me.


#29

It depends on whether you can render a single eye or not.


#30

Yes, if rendering a single eye twice doesn’t take more time than rendering both, then this brainwarp might actually work. Would still darken the image but with increased backlight that problem should be solved too.

Hey whattayouknow… feasible?


#31

Exactly. As Far as I know, games don’t do this, but I’m not 100% sure.


#32

so ideally just a bit of software ,not to much to worry about ,lets hope the hardware shows some light soooooon


#33

#34

Do you refer to particular OLED display/manufacturer or to the OLED technology? I was used to believe that OLED latency is in range of µs rather than ms for LCD.


#35

I am pretty sure he is referring to the situation with a pixel that is all together shut off - not just driven at a very low level. When firing it back up, there is a step-up time, which manifests in so-called “black smear”, which can be seen by panning an image with deep black in it - leading edges on bright stuff will “squish together”.

It was noted with the Oculus Rift DK2, so for CV1 and Vive, it was combatted in two ways:

  • Pixels were “overdriven” at black-to-nonblack transitions, to speed them up.
  • The pixels were never shut off in the first place, which led to a barrage of complaints about how the devices did not have true black, with a static field of pinprick lights (think pulling several layers of black pantyhose over your head, and going out on a sunny day) showing where things should be dark.

#36

Thanks for the explanation. I do not have any experience with Oculus (and very limited one with Vive), but if I may draw some conclusion from my experience with phone and tablet displays, the black on the OLED displays I was using (Note 2, and Tab S2, interestingly the only Samsung OLED panels which are using true RGB matrix) were, even when not completely off, still way better than the “full black” on the LCD. By a complete class.


#37

Oh, absolutely. I don’t know about more recent displays (will certainly not expect any QLED, nor QD filters, in the 8k/5k, any way :7), but when I went from a phone with an oled screen, to one with a LCD, hmm, must have been almost two years ago by now, the light bleed became painfully obvious when using the device in nightstand mode; From pleasantly glowing red numbers floating in the darkness, to a blazingly bright gray square with the time “printed” on it, in pale pink. :stuck_out_tongue:


#38

Now…that’s serious talk ! I like this gal’s attitude to think out of the box, that’s where the real progresses in research are made. But I also see this could be a double edged sword, like any frontier research, I think we have to be careful about the implications and possible bad uses of any invasive technology.


#39

@risa2000 Yes, the best oled panels have latencies in the range of just µs , sad thing is, they are still keeping these artificially slowed to common values for commercial reasons, and for more hidden reasons too, one of which is that the currently used refresh rates of any screen (since late 60’s cathod tubes) are designed to induce the human brain in a particular receptive state, and more…but this is another story and I seriously doubt might interest most people of a VR forum.


#40

Could be, could be; It seems we owe gratitude to Peter Gabriel (ok Pete, be our sledgehammer, by all means :P) for advocating Mary Lou’s working on the scanner away from the megacorps; Especially given her last employer was Facebook, via Oculus. :7