Demostrating Pimax 8k has real RGB subpixels with an 4k panel resolution. And explaining the source of its image problems


#102

They look the same (8K panel & Sony Xperia Z5P panel) IMO. :sunglasses:


#103

I disagree here, the Xperia Z5 also shows a diagonal zigzag pattern in the green pixels that I cannot see on the 8K.


#104

Question… if they’re just using sharp screens, where does the “C” in CLPL come in?


#105

Interestingly enough - the image you posted loaded for me in two passes, the first was a low res looking thing which made the two, side by side, look the same


#106

Aye, I understand but as this is for enthusiasts, what did they think would happen. People love technical details as much as others love VR enjoyment. If any of this is true (unverified atm) then it will not look great for them trying to hide this from their more determined followers.

All it takes is for one person to take out the panel, put it under a microscope and take a pic.

Pimax may have backed themselves into a corner with only the 5K+ being the one recommended by the testers and magazines until they change the 8K panel to live up to its 8K claim. Fixable yes but leaves a bitter taste for those that thought they would get a nice big jump over the cheaper 5K unit.

If this turns out to be the reason why and Pimax have being leading people along with “still tweaking software”, suggesting it can be improved, If its the panel then they would have known all along that it can not be improved to levels that people expect.


#107

Was this from the headstrap part of the Vive on SweViver’s profile picture, above?

I zoomed in on that, too, and applied some contrast and tons of saturation, and I can see what you say. I’d be inclined to believe a claim along the lines of the green pixels being clearly delimited “islands” embedded in staggered lines, into a “sea” of solid top-left to bottom-right red and blue stripes – maybe even a red-to-blue gradient, which lacks delineation on the colour filter layer - activiating the subpixel’s electrodes would light up the area, without any screen door mesh between the red and blue elements.

This would make each pixel that green island, surrounded by half-distance-to-nearest-neighbour red “coastal waters” to the north and east, and blue to the south and west, with the red-blue filter parts, with the green one set into it, kind of fitting the “rainbow” monicker.

Now that I write it down, I wonder if I haven’t seen a schematic picture of something along those lines, before…

EDIT: Something like this:

EDIT2: If so, that it is diagonal remains a problem; The input image is rendered for horizontal/vertical. :7

EDIT3:


#108

But this is the double edged sword of crowd funding. As backers we are both stakeholders in the business as well as consumers of the end product.

Traditionally in business, stakeholders invest and only care about profitability and growth of a brand, where-as consumers care about end product quality.

If you were to expect a move that focusses on improving the product quality at this point, it could potentially kill pimax off as a business. They are already overdue by almost a year of R&D, salaries, trade events, without any of the forecasted income from consumer sales following product launch. We are VERY lucky it’s at least an established company with another product under its belt already rather than a true start up, otherwise they may have not even been able to sustain themselves.

Undoubtedly I think the 8K will cost more to produce. That alone justifies a higher price point (which although unverified, could be as little as $100 more), and the fact remains that although it is not the common recommendation there exists an audience who will prefer the reduction in SDE and better contrast.

I’m really not sure what you’re expecting from Pimax as a company at this point. If they were to delay the 8K for improvements it would potentially be company suicide (that can only be speculation, but that I to be expected to everyone outside of the company). If they were to announce an 8K+, what more details could they possibly give publicly without offering backers an upgrade option that will lose them money? If they announced the 8K+ would only be for sale afterwards, they would be killing off all their acquisitions and R&D on the 8K completely, and ENRAGE backers.

In my opinion, you are expecting far too much if you also want Pimax to succeed as a company. If they were being more savvy like other posters have suggested they wouldn’t have even revealed the 5K+ until afterwards and marketed it as a follow-up/alternative to the 8K. Instead they have offered it to ALL backers, together with a voucher of the price difference to those who originally backed the 8K if they prioritise the advantages of the 5K+ over SDE and contrast.


#109

I agree with most of what you say. What I want? I just want an answer. I asked Pimax several times if the 8K is of less clarity than the 5K+ due to software (fixable) or hardware (not fixable). Their response was “We are still tweaking software, you have more time to delay before switching” which was not an answer. If this subpixel structure explains why then I will have lost some faith in them because they could have avoided all this latest investigation by just being up front with basic specs of the panels. Truth is better than deception every single time.

A little lost faith from me is nothing but how will the media react? I could just bury my head and say Shhhhh and hope this does not escalate into OMG PIMAX LIES! SUE THEM! by the nay-sayers but then I see risk, I see time to halt speculation running wild and control it. That time feels about now to me.


#110

def NOT the same. 8k you can draw straight diagonal green subppx lines. sony you cannot do that due to zigzag. no subpx zigzag on 8k


#111

yes i did but no direct answer, i thought i read that its not possible but could not find it
IF its possible then it would not be nativ 4k on the diplay, it will have to squeezed through the DP and less then 60hz does not make sense so it could be a little bit more then 1440p but if the 8k displays cant bring up a better picture (less pixel then we thought) then even trying would be a wast of time and also the anx7530 successor (7539?) seems to come with a scaler and that one might be more flexible and could be disabled, so also wasted time to think to much about the scaler and develop a solution, the 8k in its backer-state might be no viable product, more expensive and minimal gain so it might be a commercial flop and might not be hit consumer market


#112

I agree Pimax could have shared more of the specific hardware details in terms of the screens used, that’s for sure, but I don’t think they would ever realistically be able to say whether limitations are completely hardware or software related. That kind of definitive answer is far too difficult.

The testers have access to the full current hardware and are doing very in depth comparisons which Pimax are actively promoting. I wouldn’t be surprised if at this point a lot of the info they are sharing is as much as they understand internally (except for this discussion on the panel type and pixel ratio). All they can commit to is continual optimisation of software and share the reviewers’ opinions, as a lot of the points around “which is better” are actually quite subjective.

I think based on the info in this topic and other discussions on the forum, together with the results shared by the testers, you can safely assume that the 8K will always be limited by its hardware. The nature of the upscaling and the panels being used means that although Pimax will probably try to make it as good as possible, it will never reach the clarity of the 5K+. Pimax probably realise this also, but it would be a horrific PR and marketing decision to announce it publically rather than letting product testing and reviews say it for them.


#113

If you lose control of the narrative then you are opening yourself to risk. Not a good move.

When I say control I meant the narrative so that less favorable or biased publications don’t run wild with “Flagship product inferior to lesser product”.

For example they could say (i made this up) “The 8K panel uses a diamond RB/G structure as it is the only low persistent panel that we could source for our 8K production for a October launch. It has superior SDE than current consumer headsets available and rest assured that as panel technology progresses we will keep improving our products at the cutting edge.”

Something like that :slight_smile:

PS, The testers are not allowed to dismantle the units as far as I am aware, probably because of this.


#114

Yes actually I agree with you here. There’s definitely more they could be saying!

I have quite a forgiving stance for them, and it may be purely because of comparisons to other Kickstarter campaigns that were even worse, or my own experiences with product development (although I worked in pharmaceuticals not electronics haha). I imagine it’s a tough time for them right now with a lot of decisions having to happen very quickly without even having a firm grasp of what they’ve developed so far.

Maybe with the upcoming 8K-X update we’ll get some more detail, although no doubt they’ll now be worried about sharing TOO much after already asking some backers to make the 8K and 5K+ choice…


#115

Yup, I think you nailed it with that. They have a confusing product launch that will require some clever wording to separate the range for the average joe as it is now. I hope they are working on that with a professional. The media do not hold punches when it comes to tech and specs. Look at the NVidia RTX for example. More statistics than the ONS :smiley:


#116

That’s where folks should be happy with having 2 choices instead of wanting 3.

In my younger years I was incorrigible always wanting choices not offered & naturally this caused a lot of problems.

Pimax was under no obligation to do anything except ship us the headset(s) we backed. But they chose to give a choice with a new development that they could have shelfed & sold later as a premium 5k with improvements. One thing the testers have said both regardless are nice headsets; due to them having both to compare they can & have quantified them.

If none of them had the 5k+ to try & compare each would be happy with the 8k. And each 5k backer would have been happy with the base 5k model. Both headsets have been said numerous times better than what is currently available.

Folks should choose A or B. Otherwise sell when the time is right; just don’t make the mistake of taking it out of the box & try it as you might like what you see.


#117

So 2080 TI with a lot of supersampling will help?


#118

Not really. The reviewers already took images of SS maxes in PiTool and SteamVR. I think the best #team8k can hope for is a last minute component swap (panels and/or upscaler) or getting a sharpening pass before down scaling.


#119

Still testing the possibilities with lower refresh rate, cannot guarantee any breakthrough yet.
For the first batch early backers, if you cannot make a choice now, you are free to make a decision later.


#120

Can you ask the engineer any possible way to make 8K clearer?


#121

Thank you, Xunshu!

But if the panels in 8K are what been discussed here, no any software solution can improve them. As a 8K backer with 5K+ choice, I would like to ask

  • if there any plans to upgrade the panels in 8K to 8K+ like 5K to 5K+? in what timeframe?
  • if there are 8K+ coming, then why not sell 8K to your business partners and then offer 8K+ to 8K KS backers?
  • maybe give us a choice to buy (for whatever money you think is reasonable) extra 5K+ while we are waiting for 8K+?