Feelings of a backer


#61

lots of people complain because they see the 5k+ and the 8k+ and say thats how it was meant to be with the initial 5k/8k kicksarter (hint: recognize the missing “+”)
but they compare mainly a headset that was outside the initial kickstarter campaign and pimax was nice to us and offered us the 5k+ (and even a $100 coupon) when “downgrading” to it
if they would have kept the 5k+ in the lab as “in development” then what?
we would have the 8k as we know it and a 5k (only a few people have backed?) presumably the 5k would have the same strange subpixel pattern as the 8k has and we would see more the difference in 5k/8k when comparing lens shots, more 8k user, more of them happy to even have the 8k instead of the 5k (perdurable some trade up’s from 5k to 8k)
in 2018 most of the backers where screaming/asking to get the headset as quick as possible and pimax did that
now ~1 year after showing the final version (berlin meetup) and starting production they show us two further developed headsets 5k+/8k+ with new panel tech not available before (for the affordable price in question)
sure there would be demand on “exchanging” the older headsets but it might be more apparent that the main reason for the difference is wanting to not wait (1 year) longer
and even if we wait one year longer from now there would be better panels, maybe 4k rgb oled in price range - will backers hold pimax responsible for exchanging there headset for free every year?
the kickstarter calculation was made in 2017, it was developed to the final stage in 2018, production and delivery was started in 2018, most got there headset q1/2019 delivered - the main part of the kickstarter project was finished by then, end of story
only the 8kx backer where getting a loaner, everyone else had finished the cycle by getting his backed headset and is now waiting for additions like controller/basestations and stretch goals

maybe just for a moment think of how your demands should work out with the “small” amount of money you gave for the kickstarter (btw yes we “kicked” them a lot and they “started” selling the headsets)

you don’t have to be a expert to do a little math about it, just imagine for a moment you are in charge of pimax and how to handle all the things, material to order to keep stings going, pay workers and renting places, and in the end you need to have a positive result after 2-3 years
it not that cheap to take 6000 headset back, throw a lot of older parts in the bin, having people doing the rework and doing all the sending out again, doing development to keep things up for the future (also to for stretch goals like wireless) and on top of this having to juggle the money inside the stretch goals (did not work for the eye tracking - as most expected when familiar with what happened in that field - how much money wanted htc for the vive pro eye? did the valve index got it?)

(yes i’m leaving out the whole controller/bs and stretch goals aspect because that’s a completely independent story of events and money involved)

edit: so whats your reward and benefit as a backer (beside you really got a headset) - it’s the fact you kick started pimax’s bushiness and will be able to buy (YES buy) products from that creative bunch of people in the future - you don’t own the place and if unsatisfied you might leave and don’t look back


#62

Well, thats a lot of text to chew and consume :coffee:


#63

This is unbelievable but some people want the product they backed, no they didn’t make a donation to help Pimax start their business.
You are only helping Pimax toward bankruptcy here.


#64

Yes, he is a good helper for ruining a business)


#65

I was limited in messages.
@Helio, check this: Destiny 2. Free

I am shocked by Pimax, now they began to check my messages, and they are not published in the general stream.


Pimax, you have already lost your shame

Wow, Pimax has not yet lost his shame, cheers, comrades.
In Generally, I belive in @Helio


#66

To wind it up from its tail…

Deadlines - are subject to change. That’s normal for startups, developing industries, and in general. You’re just from Germany. Everything must be right on time there, or people get mad and personally insulted. You may need to change a bit and adapt to the global world. Not the world to you.

Regular updates - they got them. Almost every other month. What company does that? The closest is Oculus - they update once a year on OC.

Defective HMDs sent. Yeah, that’s been an issue, I agree. They’re changing that right now though fortunately.

Critical posts and questions not answered - depends on what is defined as critical - and what as obnoxious or insulting. Again, the need to adapt to the global world. Not the world to you. If you are not as direct, and more considerate in your comments and not as harsh, then you may get a response to a question too. Best may be to keep politeness steady, and avoid pushing anyone to lose face.

That sums it up.

If instead of with rage, you’re looking at this as something to consider for the future, a piece of advice to take as serious as I took it writing this, writing it was worth it to me. Good luck man.:metal::wink:


#67

Hi, I understand your point of view, but I don’t share it. You have written how you think events have been, now I will explain how they have been in my view.

The 5k + is nothing more than a 5k (as far as I know nobody has seen a 5k). What happens is that it looked so good that they wanted to save the 4k screens of the 8k because they were much more expensive, so they proposed the change, to save expenses and the kickstarter was not so deficit (because they had made a tremendous mistake with the prices of the bases and controls).

I am also sure that if the 8k + screens are going to be mounted on a commercial HMD at the end of October 2019, pimax knew about the existence of those screens at least in December 2018. So, they lied us on purpose when they said We weren’t going to see an 8k +.

I may be wrong in everything, or nothing. But what I’m sure of is that Pimax has lied to us enough times not to believe that they have done things for our good. And that is what makes me more angry, having contributed to a company that has not been as transparent as I expected. I will try to enjoy the most of my 8k, which I think is a good HMD. Although not as good as I expected.


#68

Wrong address…


#69

Hello JoCool, to make it clear again.
I had asked Pimax.USA if it would be possible to use the $ 100 coupons for the index controllers.
I asked this question on pimax.usa 5 times while pimax.usa was online. I did not receive an answer. Anyone who is simply ignored feels hurt, no matter which country he comes from. So you should not deal with anyone.
Especially not with backers.
I guess they agree with me, I also communicate in a friendly and objective way and as a grown person I do not need to be offensive.
I wish you all the best too


#70

That is true. However at that time they were working on assumption, that 8k panels will be true RGB. Which most of us took as confirmed by answers by Pimax on kickstarter, even if you don’t consider it confirmation, it was definitely at least hinted on.

Pimax was not transparent about this issue and it came clear only once the M2 testers embargo was lifted, by that time it was too late.

We have no clue what would happen if Pimax was transparent on this from the start, all is just speculation. But it is possible that backers would not “scream/ask” so much if the truth was out. Maybe 5k+ could have been offered for those who want it asap, and in case of true 8k people would have to wait. I think that would have been fair compromise.

This is what have been asking for 2 years now - give as correct information (good or bad), no misleading, so we can correctly formulate our decisions. If you are deciding on bad information or rumors, then decisions can be wrong. At least the Pimax day was step in right direction and they finally did say good and bad.


#71

The Dec seems right given how quickly they finally started shoving hmds out the door around then.


#72

We dont know how much the discount will be, be even so I do not see it being a huge amount, as Pimax are assuming people will use their coupons and trade in their controllers for another coupon to use on the 8K+

But i also see it from Pimax’s perspective, they had already delayed the release so many times, and backers were getting impatient.So they as they continued working they got better panels for the 5K to create the 5K+.
The 5K+ looked better than the 8K, so they offered everyone access to the 5K+

Now the bad part was not telling backer they were also waiting for even newer panels for the 8K to make the 8K+
If they knew back when they gave us the 5K+, they should have told us: you can get a 5K+ now, or wait a year for us to test these new panels for the 8K+
But they wanted to push their product as well.
So they got the youtubers to review the 5K+, knowing they would tell backers to get the 5K+ instead of the 8K. And many of us did based on those reviews.

BUT if we had know of the 8K+ production, I know many of us would have waited, or asked for a loaner 5K+ whilst we waited!


#73

and that’s where the differences are, for me its a train, that i can inspect and decide if its worth the risk to pay for a ticket, if i jump on it (even if i dont have all information, then its my own decision and risk) i’m in the passenger compartment, the CEO of the company is in the front driving, passengers do not steer the train, if the driver is polite he might ask for decisions but he does not need to as long es the train heads to its designated directions, the way taken (more or less “minor” detours included) is up to the driver
in some cases the train falls apart, just stops and passengers end up in the middle of nowhere
or maybe prefer to compare it as being your flight to somewhere - does the pilot let decide the passengers about the destination and way to it - no, there is a strict flight plan (aka business plan?) layed out before and changing it can result in a crash (passengers usually don’t know about the flight corridor and other things)

the “truth” and “lie” are like black an white, they do exist but in reality its more often between both, technically not telling the truth be leaving out is not a lie, more deception (sorry english is not my native language)
just telling positive things and leaving out negative might be seen differently, depending on culture and personality (i know from japan that they really try not to use a simple “no, can’t do this”, its not there way to talk even if i don’t mind and prefer a straight answer, the best you will get is a “it’s complicated” and if you know the body-language and look for it you will see the uneasiness and might recognize a no)

am i disappointed, yes (i can’t use my 5k+ only for 20-30 minutes before is feel funny and this resulted in less VR usage - good for my body when i do sports instead ;-))
i don’t care about the panels as long as the VR basics are not fixed like latency and optics/IPD

my point is that its to late to change the 5k/8k kickstarter, pimax does not have financial capability of micosoft or apple that can afford loosing millions just to keep face, they will not exchange all 8k/5k+ for 8k+

as customer you are voting with our feet, as kickstarter backer that is limited, you end with your backed product if you like it or not
if i spend money on a pimax product (like 8kx) then it will be only with the usual 14 days back no questions ask to the conditions of the laws of my country/region (local business company in my country, will be more expansive but worth it)
the only thing i might buy from pimax (china) are new lenses when they where confirmed to correct the existing problems


#74

On this I agree, people expecting some free 8k+ or exchange for 8k are not realistic (even if 8k+ looks more like what was actually promised in KS).

Good deal is best we can hope for now, but I don’t think Pimax can do even that (which is more or less clear by not giving eye tracker for free, so they probably can’t justify even $200 for everyone, though it might be easier on their own product).

Pimax should do what they can to survive (it is in our best interest as well). On the other hand backers have right (reasons) to be dissatisfied/angry at this point. So I can understand those who are.


#75

I understand the frustration here. When the panels were upgraded in the 5k (giving us the 5K+), Pimax (in their zeal) unwittingly created a PR disaster because the 8K was no longer a superior ($100 superior, to be exact) headset. The 5K+ and 8K became two headsets where the backer was required to pick the ‘lessor of two evils’… both had ‘downsides’ depending on the games you played and it boiled down to a personal preference, when it should have been picking one that was clearly superior to the other.

Pimax knew this, hence the $100 credit offer to ‘downgrade’ to the 5K+… which was, in reality, not a downgrade at all.

Now we have the 8K+, which has the panel that is a clearly superior to the 5K+, and is the panel that should have provided the clear contrast in choice between the 5K and 8K models.

It may sound harsh, but those who chose to stick with the 8K, made the wrong decision. Obviously, you don’t know what you can’t know, but by choosing the 5K+, you received a $100 credit and a more significant ‘delta’ in improvement for when the next iteration of headsets became available.

If the 8KX proves to be the ‘real deal’ and Pimax gets their manufacturing & logistics solved this go around, stepping back up to an 8K (’+’ or ‘X’) becomes a no-brainer, while moving from an 8K to an 8K+ is a much harder, more bitter pill to swallow… you will need to go ‘all-in’ with the 8KX which requires a substantial rig to support it.

It sucks, but when you’re an early adopter in a technology that’s moving this fast, but you have to think more strategically with regards to future investments in the technology. We’re all (unfortunately) getting a ‘crash course’ in this particular set of economics.


#76

Generic will you feel fine about the idea of getting your 8KX then within 6 months the introduce the 8KX+ with oled panels incredible color and blacks 90-120hz. And then ask you to spend another $700 to $1200 to upgrade. Just saying people have good reason to feel the way the do you may be fine with it thats ok too. Pimax needs to hear people out and realize they are effecting potential loyalty to the brand. Its waiting on my decisions. If a potential competitor comes foward shortly the may be surprised how many people write pimax off completely. By maintaining good standings they would likely keep loyal followers.


#77

Not that I would not agree with what you wrote, just would like to add that the original 8k was clearly mismanaged. Not only the panels, but also the scaler was quite bad, and the problems with refresh, this all together was simply “a bridge too far” for Pimax.

I would expect (but with Pimax one can never know) that today’s 8k+ is better in all those aspects, better design, sourced better parts (not only the displays, but also the scaler, possibly also the DP bridge), etc. So it seems more like a real product upgrade than just the same product with different displays.


#78

Totally disagree with you there buddy (as a Reverb V2 & index user). Different class experience all round. To the point where the Pimax FOV advantage becomes moot. But that’s just my opinion.


#79

Sure, it’s good to have different opinions. But I guess the overall reception of either of these two headsets has not exactly sent shock waves through the VR community, so it doesn’t really appear as if the majority feels they advanced the experience substantially.

At least within the German VR community, as far as I can tell from the forum I am a frequent visitor of, there are really just a handful of people who switched to Reverb and Index, and while they are not necessarily unhappy with their move, it’s not as if they would be singing the praise of it when-ever they can. Some even returned the Index because they felt it just didn’t deliver enough to justify the switch from e.g. the Odyssey+ at the additional cost asked by Valve (obviously rather those who care less about precise fast-paced room scale tracking). The Index is a nicely polished package but seems to lack any significant upgrade on any particular feature, and the Reverb appears to provide a significant gain on the PPI (within the sweetspot, that is), but has too many cons on other features to make it a blast unless the PPI factor is overwhelmingly important to the user.

I was banking on the Index to likely be my next headset when Valve made their surprise announcement, but they just couldn’t get me over the line once the specs were disclosed. If they had added wireless as an optional module, or at least an announcement of it being added within a reasonable timeframe, that might have been the push I needed. But as it stands, it doesn’t offer me enough - I figured it would be more like getting the latest iPhone if you own the previous one: at first, you are excited to get it, but once you hold it in your hands you start to wonder why you hardly notice the difference when using it.

So what did I do instead ? For the days where I am looking to just breeze through my VR library easily, especially Oculus Home, I decided to get a 2nd hand Rift S. It’s certainly not perfect, I dislike the absence of the IPD ruler, and I can’t help but notice the narrowness of the FoV as a disturbing factor. But all in all it ticked more boxes for my needs next to having an 8K, than the Index or Reverb would have done for me.

But I can see why somebody would be unnerved by the hassle of using the Pimax headsets, having to play with PiTool settings in addition to SteamVR, the missing polish on some parts; this experience will improve using the Index, and if you wanted to have only one headset at home, that might be the better solution. I just did not want to sacrifice the FoV for Skyrim, PJC2 etc. if the gain for me was mainly convenience - and paying a four-digit price for a secondary headset wasn’t a great outlook either.

Apart from that I always knew of course that there is this dark horse looming around the corner which I have already paid for - the 8KX.

TL;DR The Index gives more polish yet no greater advancements on any specific spec; the Reverb gives substantially better PPI but asks for sacrifices on other parts - hence I decided to wait for a more convincing package and got a Rift S as a secondary convenience headset instead.


#80

I’d be fine with it mainly because the 8KX has no SDE.

That and I actually want headsets to get better and better faster.

If headsets get better and better when I actually do decide to upgrade it will be a LEAP not a small tiny inconsequential step @VR247

That and I’m sure Pimax isn’t enacting some evil plan to not ship 8KX backers OLED, there’s probably other factors involved assuming your scenario is true.