My opinion about SDE both 8k and 5k+ (mr.uu)

review

#61

As someone who mostly uses VR currently (with a Vive) for playing Elite: Dangerous, I just wanted to get a gut-check on something that’s come up in this thread:

When people are writing about text in E: D on the 8K vs. the 5K+ being “readable”, that seems to carry the implication that one or the other is on the cusp of being unreadable. This worries me, because I find very little text unreadable on the standard Vive (and leaning in a bit fixes those few cases) and nothing unreadable on the Vive Pro.

So if text in Elite: Dangerous is “unreadable” on either new Pimax headset, then that’s an enormous red flag for me.

On the other hand, if those of you who have been using this wording just mean that in your opinion one or the other is more readable (whether that refers to comfort, clarity, aesthetics, or whatever) than the other—that would be a relief.

So my questions to those of you discussing readability of text in Elite: Dangerous:

  1. Which do you mean, “readability vs. unreadability” or “better readability vs. okay readability”?
  2. Have you tried a Vive Pro, and if so, do you consider either the 8K or 5K+'s readability worse than the Vive Pro?

I did try Elite: Dangerous on both models at the meetup, and found cockpit text much more readable than even the Vive Pro on both models, but I didn’t have the time to look at every sort of text in the game (and the newest update last week has added several new game modes with new styles and sizes of text, anyway).

Thanks for the clarifications.


#62

This puzzled me to as on My OG Vive I have no problems with text :confused:


#63

Interesting. But until they find the formula guess they will be tweaking. Haven’t been able to install 91 or new firmware. Rig not setup again after move & inet not setup yet. :weary:


#64

But wasn’t the case prior to recent update.


#65

It’s more of a clarity thing. Think of a laser printer vs an inkjet.

5k+ due to a monitor pixel layout will render fonts better due to font subpixel rendering & the fact most lettering mainly consists of vertical lines & horizontal.

Just a point that has been over emphasized


#66

It’s a really simple explanation and I like it, but does that mean that text quality degrades if you tilt your head?

Maybe we could use some kind of ClearType (https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/28790/tweak-cleartype-in-windows-7/) to improve text clarity on the 8k? Obviously it’s not possible to change all games to get this improvement, but could be an interesting experiment.

Initially I was hoping that we could update the scaling formula to improve the 8k clarity, but now I realize that there might be a better solution. It is possible to alter the rendered image before it’s sent to the HMD to improve the scaled image. Lens closeup of the 8k showed some kind of chromatic aberation because of scaling and rainbow pixels arrangement. If we could shift pixels so that it’s correctly placed in the scaled image it could improve 8k clarity a lot. It could be done very cheaply using pixel shaders.

I really hope to get me 8k soon to play with that :star_struck:


#67

I find it interesting that you consider all text to be readible in ED. If you take the text below the pips, being SYS, ENG, WEP, or the three status items to the right of it (Mass lock, landing gear, cargo scoop) all of those are virtually unreadable with the Vive, a tad better with the Rift, but still not really easy to decipher. That’s what most of the people are referring to when they speak about their hope of getting a clearer view within ED. I haven’t tried ED in the Vive Pro or Odyssey+ so cannot say anything about those two.


#68

I have no problems reading that on My OG vive, it shimmers a bit but no problems with reading it.


#69

It’s comments like this, which worry me: “Text is much better on 5K+” and “text aliasing” is mentioned at 0:25…

This worries me more: I can’t find the quote, but someone else said that Elite had the worst text readability on an 8K, of all the games he tried. It makes me wonder if the 8K was configured optimally at the Chicago meet-up.

I feel like I’m right on the cusp of switching (again) back to the 8K. I wish I could try ED for myself on both headsets. I have a good i7 system with a RTX 2080, so I should have the ability to tweak for quality (within reason).

I decided what I should do… I should take a poll. If you play ED an and have tried the game on both a 5K+ and an 8K, please share your thoughts…


#70

Same here.

Slightly nearsighted though (~-1,5).

Maybe that’s the reason?


#71

I think @karrtoon mentioned there was indeed something about the setup that wasn’t perfect? Parallel Projections enabled?


#72

Good question. Whilst I see the argument about the grid layout I find it hard to believe as the main reason for the text advantage. It’s unlikely mid game with screens left and right of you in elite for example that your head will be perfectly aligned with the pixels to give this benefit. Or with any game really. Your head is moving around, dials, screens etc are all over the place etc.

Yes it will probably be partly down to the vertical horizontal layoutt but from what I can see it’s because of much tighter subpixel RGB arrangement whereas the 8K does some weird stuff with its subpixels scattered about. I suspect 5K+ will always be sharper for text regardless of orientation.


#73

That gentleman spent about an hour tweaking settings on the 8k. He brought his own rig. It was a i9 9900k rtx 2080ti fe 32gb ram. When he was finally able to hook up the 5k+ he new within 5 minutes what his choice was. I didn’t see it on the 8k bought I did take a look on the 5k+ and it looked amazing. That was just sitting in the cockpit and it was my only time in ED but it looked amazing!!!


#74

I think that’s required for ED.


#75

Yes, he is an an experienced VR ED USER he was trying everything to get it to look the best he could.


#76

@DrWilken
@neal_white_iii

Was configured correctly. Even turned off the temporal aa stuff to avoid blur, set VR High, medium, low, bunch of settings. Found best settings for 8k first (where that guy in video was finally happy with the 8k and was ready to swap 5k+ on system), 5k+ was in use on the other side of the room on my rig until later.

We spent about 1-2 hours with elite on the guy’s 2080ti rig just optimizing it for the 8k. At the end of the night we brought the 5k+ over (kept same settings) Everyone agreed it was way better on 5k+. Not only that, but I have also been testing elite here at my house a bunch with both and can tell you the same. tbh, I have doubts the other meetups were configured correctly haha. I even went to the NY meetup and can vouch for that because it looked nothing like I see it now.

Not just text clearer like the guys says in the video either but everything, the stars, cockpit, the sky all clear and… stars hold in place. No ~20ms wobbles when you turn your head like sebastian does here https://youtu.be/nPUGCAIedKg?t=673

Worse blacks though, definitely better blacks on 8k :frowning:

We used normal fov and parallel projection on it btw.

But yeah I didn’t realize large fov is bugged on .91 with parallel projection on and creates a tad bit of blur. That only affected things earlier in the day after pavlov. After that I was showing people skyrim large fov was on (with parallel projection on) and it was blurry and I couldn’t figure out why. We didn’t use large fov in Elite in parallel projection and stuck to normal so was good!


Help me decide - must be an Elite Dangerous player
#77

I am talking about this kind of shitty quality:

Got nothing to do with being short or far sighted, shitty is shitty.


#78

Looks to me like Steam SS at lower than 30%, so the base resolution the game renders is too low.

Played yesterday subnautica on 20% Steam SS and realized immediately that something is wrong. Near Objects or near text was not really different, but details mid or far away looked jaggy. Performance was of cours much better :joy:

I found out that if you change Steam SS setting you have to restart steamVR to take effect…


#79

Wow, you really need to do some thing with your setting, mine looks way way better than that.
It used to look like that when I first got elite :slight_smile:


#80

It‘s a screenshot from the internet, but this is how it looked when I tried it with my Vive 1,5 years ago - same settings on the Rift looked clearer and I never went back because it has less SDE too. ED is of course knwon to look particularly poor on the Vive, but knowing that part of the problem is attributable to the game doesn‘t help much if it‘s exactly this game you wish to play…
With a 2080 you can of course go to SS settings which my 980Ti wouldn‘t have supported at the time.