Pimax 5K specific (vs 8K model)


#1

Hi Pimax community
as a backer of the 5K model i know there are some things different to the 8K models. However, these differences are usually not reflected in all informations provided by Pimax. I’d like to start this thread to collect and discuss all 5K specific information.
(All accessories are the same, HMD design is the same, both have CLPL displays)

Let’s get started:

Shipping:
Now - after the survey has been released - we all got some sort of confirmation that initial shipping of 8Ks is expected in January and base stations as early as April. With the updates around CES2018 this holds still true in principal, while Pimax now say they will send a couple of backers an early version for review in January before starting mass production for later delivery. That mass delivery is roumored to happen in May 2018.
For the 5K model that was at some point said to ship in March at the earliest, this could lead to a production and shipping window between late February and April. Most likely Pimax will put the 5k production after final design of the 8k version, possibly before mass production of the 8k model, fingers crossed some next gen graphic cards will be availabe around then. Pimax will make some official statements about shipping plans till end of January.

Retail Availability:
Unlike the Pimax 8k or 4k this model won’t become a retail product later on. There was some confusion about different versions. AFAIK this is based on the fact that for B2B there will be options to buy custom made 5k HMDs in large quantities. These could also feature OLED, but the KS-backer version will have the same CLPL tech as the Pimax 8k retail version, just with less resolution.

Displays and Lenses:
All that is confirmed is the CLPL technology for the 5k model too. The promise of irrelevant screen door effect (SDE) was also made for the 5k model but the 8k should still be better. The panel size is not known today, nor the contrast ratio, brightness and other display specs like back light.
So far the prototypes had similar lenses for the 8k and 5k models, most likely display sizes and lenses will be the same. Then power and heat should only be slightly less, brightness and speed better than with the 8k.

Signal Electronics:
While the 5k display matches the native input resolution of 2x2560x1440 there is no confirmation for an integrated scaler yet, as it comes with the 8k model. The latter is said to be capable of up-scaling from (2x) full HD. Lack of scaler or bypassing it may improve photon delay, power and heat and/or refresh rate being more stable up to 90Hz.

Emotional Comfort Zone:
Since there is less money involved for backers there seems to be much less “shit my pants” reactions on bad news about the post campaign progress in Pimax 8k prototypes.
On the other hand there is the lurking doubt that in the end the resolution might not be just as good and the upscaling of the 8k model adds really to readability and relevant details in future applications.
For the time beeing it is safe to say the comfort zone for the 5k has been the better one…


Pimax 5k Specifications
#2

The HMD will still work with 3DoF without base-stations, so you can still play game-pad games and watch movies etc.


#3

I know, but you risk a double customs handling fee for just a few days HMD operation w/o propper tracking…
so what is the expected shipping date for the 5Ks? that is sth. Pimax should confirm.
And in addition, i’d hope they ship all remaining kits including a HMD first.


#4

They have previously said they can make/ship about 2000 units per month.
If they do start shipping in Jan, you will definitely have more than a few days.

They have also said they have US and EU warehouses ( with possibility of adding more ), so if you are from there you will not need to pay any customs.


#5

hm, AFAIK there hasn’t been seen a single CLPL display with that 2.5k resolution in the wild yet. It all depends on when the supplier can provide those as well, and then there is shipping to the US, Europe and other parts of the world too which might take some time in case it’s not air cargo…
best would be a Pimax rep could simply confirm at some point in time… I’ll keep track on the changes in the initial post, just to have a up to date notes for me and whom ever it may concern as well…


#6

Will Pimax make all 8k, then all 5k or backwards? Makes sense to get rid of 400 units before the big haul.

Or are they manufactured concurrently?


#7

They might be manufactured concurrently, but I doubt it. I assume both panels will be made by the same supplier. If so, it’s likely that the panels would be made on the same production line, in which case, the 5K units might come first (as production line issues are ironed out) or in a later batch after the 8K units have been produced.


#8

added/changed paragraph about shipping to reflect recent discussions… added emotional impact…

and in February i just realized the editing of the initial post isn’t possible anymore… so here just for the records:

Shipping:
Initially shipping of 8Ks was expected in January and base stations as early as April. With the updates around and after CES2018 this is history. Pimax now say they will send a couple of backers an early M1 version for review by end of February before starting mass production for later delivery. That mass delivery is now planned for the second quater in 2018 so it should still happen until end of May 2018. This should become complete shippings including the controllers and or light houses.
For the 5K model that was at some point said to ship in March at the earliest, this could lead to a
production and shipping window around April or later than that. Most likely Pimax will put the 5k production after final design of the 8k version, possibly before mass production of the 8k model. This might very well fall into the time window for next gen GPUs in 2018. (nVidia highend likely in April, AMD refresh midrange Q2, highend Q3)


#9

@xunshu @matthew.xu
Could you update us about 5K model features and planning?


#10

Yes. @matthew.xu and @xunshu I second this request. Several of us have backed and are excited about our 5k models but have only had to assume progress is OK. Can you please update on any 5k specific information, e.g. whether the displays have been chosen and if timing of production will be the same as the 8k versions? Thanks!

Also, can we have some ‘through the lens’ demonstrations of the 5k? That would be awesome!


#11

Just from a recent discussion with xunshu in another thread there is sort of a confirmation that the 5k production is on the very same track as the 8k production. The delays are just the same, the expected start of production is now some time in June 2018. The ca. 5500 HMDs will take roughly 12-14 weeks to be produced.

When everything goes well the headsets should arrive by end of September at the latest, first happy backers might be getting a headset by mid or end of June. Fingers crossed the one will report back here to tell us everything about it.


#12

I’m still hoping that Pimax will reconsider using OLED’s for their 5K model, LCD’s of various types are obviously cheaper but the simple fact they have limited refresh capability renders these display inadequate for high refresh rates, the most recent panels can reach around 5ms at the ISO black > white > black transition, many LCD producers declare 1-2 ms response time but it has very little to do with real panel performance since it is the grey > grey transition; that said…do the math and guess how many real refreshes per seconds can be made in a display of this type, and anything they say above 60Hz in reality is using various types of tricks to give the viewer the illusion of a high refresh rate, when in fact such a display can not physically reach.

OLED’s can reach HUGE fast refresh rates, even most of the ones until now produced are being kept artificially low…for reasons I will not speculate here :slight_smile: , but there are lab tests showing they can easily reach 500Hz and even double than that, without any trick, overclocking, or brain warp type technology.

GO OLED PIMAX ! IT’S THE FUTURE @xunshu


#13

it is highly unlikely that the cause for less than 90hz or just 80hz guaranteed today is due to the display tech as such. It’s rather likely the Customized Low Persistence Liquid Display (CLPL) was designed from scratch to reach at least 90hz - but to the contrary the necessary signal receiving and scaling at the new headset circuit board wasn’t possible yet. Nobody else showed that in a similar fashion at that resolutions today…
I doubt the nausea is caused by to low gray2gray but rather by strobing in general.

There is always a cost/benefit consideration. OLEDs at a reasonable price have bad sub pixel arrangement causing screen door effect. So for the Pimax 5k my expectation is that LCD with full RGB resolution is the better choice. Well we really need to see a 5k for real to tell.

The 8k might be even the better OLED candidate in the long run… but with time things will evolve… probably not so much in terms of 5k HMDs but rather 8k ones.

Today I’d be more than happy having state of the art LCD tech as a Pimax 5k in my hands.
GO CLPL PIMAX ! I want my headset now, don’t care about the future :laughing:


#14

Well…after seeing how bad the ghosting effect was in the CLPL display of the 4K I have serious doubts this technology can compete with most advanced OLED’s that have nearly no refresh rate limit for today’s standards.

Maybe Pimax is planning to use a new type of CLPL, but the fact remains that NO LCD technology could perform REAL 1ms response time (at least until now that I know…) and probably never will, since it has a physical limit of liquid crystals, and if you want to have 100Hz TRUE refresh rate, 1ms or less response time is needed.

These are only tech facts to take into consideration, look for white papers on various display technologies and you will see what I mean :slight_smile:


#15

Reminder: This topic is about known facts and official claims for the 5k vs 8k kickstarter versions - fact is Pimax said both HMDs will feature new CLPL display tech

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
please get your facts right before drawing conclusions.

1st - the Pimax 4k was no such thing as CLPL, the claim is it’s a new development for this gen
2nd - the Pimax 5k is only a backer version - kind of a limited edition for cheap - is not in the price range of “most advanced OLEDs”
3rd - there is no need for 100Hz refresh rate, the goal was somewhere between 75Hz to 90Hz, we will get 80 or 90 when lucky
4th - the lag of a single crystal isn’t really critical in real usage scenarios, it depends on the content. Considering price/value ratio compared to OLEDs the claim by Pimax is with this new CLPL they can fix the issues of typical LCDs for the use case of VR

from the FAQ

What display you use for Pimax 8K/5K?
We use customized low persistence liquid (CLPL) display. CLPL is a new patented display tech we developed with our partner for VR specifically.
CLPL display featured with less liquid respond time and higher refresh rate. We have completely eliminated ghosting and improved brightness with the CLPL display. CLPL tech is on the same level with OLED in VR era. There are only minor differences in color contrast/temperature between CLPL and OLED. Also, CLPL can reach higher PPI/PPD with the same cost. …
:

We have to give them the benefit of doubt until we have the units in our hands.
But since this discussion is really going off topic i rather stop here to respond…


#16

If you know how LCD technology works, you should have known that there is no ON-OFF strobing in LCD’s, they just keep their state in an ON state and transition to the new state (image) when the pixel changes color, and this transition time of the pixels is reasonably slow (>20ms in real world performance).

Refresh rate IS important in my opinion…for multiple reasons, nausea management, stereoscopic view support, less eye strain etc.

Sure I am giving them the benefit of doubt, as I am as excited as anyone else to see their new wide FOV models, but the fact remains that no existing LCD technology will offer an optimal visual quality, response time, and a comparable color reproduction in VR against OLED tech.

LG and Google are close to annouce new micro OLED displays with huge resolutions and very fast response times, aimed at VR.

And I must disagree with what you said about the usage scenarios, since a VR headset should cover the most wide range of uses, from fps games to racing and flight simulators, to simple games…building an headset with only some type of optimal target usability would severely limit the possibility to sell it to a wide audience, otherwise it can happen like in the 4K, that ended up being seen like a “4K movie watching headset” or good only for racing games, and I have no doubt Pimax learned the lesson from it.

Just my two cent critic thinking of the technology used today…I’m a fan of Pimax and support them in any way I can, but we have to keep in mind that there is always room for improvement or alternative choices, and I think Pimax should aim to the enthusiast VR market, not the cheap side of it.


#17

With the emailed update sent on 17th May PimaxVR confirmed:

Shipping:
It will happen at the same time frame as for the 8k version starting some time in June.
(rather mid to end of June, because they have to wait for preview results of selected backers first).

Refreshrate:
5k version will feat. 90Hz refresh rate, while for the 8k versions only 80Hz can be granted today.


#18

Would imagine that they will get the 5K out of the way quite quickly to concentrate on producing the 8K’s , depends on production line though.


#19

Anyone here have a gut feeling to see if switching to the 5k from 8k is possible? I did when I saw the 5k @ 90hz. BUT the 5k is lower res than vive pro @ 200 fov… screen door will be comparable to current vive and oculus I imagine.

So I wil stick it out with the 8k. I am very concerned about nausea though


#20

Screen door should be significantly better than vive 1 / rift roughly on par with Windows mixed reality .
8K no screen door at all though