Pimax 8K Progress [Updated: Feb 6, 2018]


#295

Yes, we will update the progress this week.


#296

New category: http://forum.pimaxvr.com/c/general-discussion


#297

you must be new here, lol.


#298

We had that discussion here (between backers), so you can wade through tons of points of view on this subject if you wish - but weekly updates are too micro-managerial, we‘re not their boss, just backers. But at this stage an update every month would make sense, but others may suggest updates when there is some meaningful news to report, or every 2,3,6 weeks, whatever. Take your pick.

I am rather interested to see if this time we get substance in terms of details on the pending issues and their status of resolution, abd then of course it would be nice to learn when the shipment of the beta units to the selected backers is planned - that would mean that they feel confident enough to consider it a near final state of the 8K, with hardly any noticable flaws left. At least, that is what I would hope…


#299

That’s really good to hear!

Obvioulsy the extent of detail of your progress update is up to you but I would ask to keep in mind that @Axacuatl specifically mentioned the update entailing detailed answers to the specific issues that were reported on in relation to V5 at CES 2018.

To that end @Yulius compiled a very good list of issues, which can be found here:

Sepcifically they are:

  1. Blurring effect of objects. One review said it may be due to sweat. Or maybe fogging. Any defogging, sweat solutions? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHwovRCBiz022
  2. Blurred objects outside the middle 100-120 degrees field of view. Several reviews said this, here’s one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/7q1jol/ces_2018_impressions_of_the_vive_pro_and_pimax_8k/23
  3. Tracking issues:
    “noticeable lag and latency when turning – even when trying really slowly.” https://www.vrfocus.com/2018/01/hands-on-pimaxs-8k-headset-impresses-but-isnt-ready-yet/5
    “Jittering and latency issues”, “delay” https://uploadvr.com/ces-2018-hands-ultrawide-pimax-8k-vr-headset/4
    “Choppiness, rotational latency, jumpiness” https://www.reddit.com/r/Pimax/comments/7pedys/handson_pimax_8k_has_come_a_long_way_but_theres/dsh9a2r2
  4. Nauseating: https://youtu.be/vfQDkdfZBlk?t=432316
  5. Artifacts, https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-pimax-8k-hands-on-long-way-kinks-to-iron/12
  6. stretching, warping, distortion: https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-pimax-8k-hands-on-long-way-kinks-to-iron/12
  7. "slivers of moving imagery " at the periphery. https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-pimax-8k-hands-on-long-way-kinks-to-iron/12
    “weird reflections at edges of lenses” https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/7pet2d/pimax_8k_vr_htc_vive_pro_tpcast_2_review_ces_2018/2
  8. Mura: https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-pimax-8k-hands-on-long-way-kinks-to-iron/12
  9. “eyes were straining a bit to keep the images fused” https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-pimax-8k-hands-on-long-way-kinks-to-iron/12 and “weird” https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/7pcaov/i_got_to_play_with_the_vive_pro_today_at_ces/dsg8dlm/3
  10. Heavy: https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/10/16875494/pimax-8k-vr-headset-design-comfort-pixels-resolution-ces-20186"

Going by the detail provided by the last update I would ask Pimax to please refrain from answering each topic by ‘this was a result of the tooling process; the team is working hard to investigate and we will inform on March’

If possible, answering each issue by means of ‘why this occurred’, ‘what we are doing to remedy this’ and ‘what effect does this have on our production pipeline’ would be fantastic.

If it’s not possible to answer in that manner, please let us know why that is the case. If your R&D efforts are something not to be shared publicly (which makes sense), please let us know and we will (hopefully) understand.

All in, I’m really looking forward to this update as those impressions from CES have me serioulsy worried this close to planned start of production.


#300

Lets put it this way I may come across as a bit of a fan boi,but the proof in the pudding is when the testers get the HMD’s,if there are problems I will be asking some serious questions towards Pimax and at least we get some clear feed back from the testers trusted with giving us a greater understanding of how the product is faring and when if it’s viable for the backers.

But for now would rather sit back and wait for said testing to occur seems pretty pointless to me posting in the forums and certain posters going backwards and forwards with the same rhetorical debates,it’s like a dog chasing it’s tale for no apparent reason and getting now where in return.


#301

#302

Great update, thanks @xunshu


#303

Reasonable for eyes were straining.

Last time I test my mobile with mojing s1. Although I set correct IPD, but found same problem. I found that my mobile have incorrect alignment because the weight of cable which be plugging.

Great investigation.


#304

From what I could tell, the whole kickstarter thing wasn’t necessarily about funding or development costs, as they seemed to infer that they were running off their cash cow (the 4k, which undoubtedly will run dry at some stage)…but also seemed to have other corporate backers…

My interpretation was the kickstarter campaign was also about advertising their product and getting the word out to developers and interested parties as well… So to some extent they are trying to recuperate manufacturing costs etc…but it running at a loss in this instance could also be written off as money spent on advertising…

Also thanks to Pimax for the updated information…Im at a loss as to backers that insist the information is not enough and want more on why and how on every single minor point in detail…


#305

@xunshu ,

Thank you for the update with a good level of detail, it sounds as if Pimax are on top of most of the issues.

I just missed the status on the distortions/warping - is this something you can add to your update ?

The 90 Hz issue will be addressed in March, as Pimax had said earlier, but silence on it means no breakthrough yet. Okay, understood.

And are you willing to share dates on the rough estimated shipping to the select beta backer group ? I assume the road show will then take in parallel with the same M2 or whatever number that prototype will have.

Keep up the good work, and I hope the Pimax team can relax a bit during the spring festival, you surely deserve it - your team have been working intensively for the last 12 months and will have another couple of crucial months ahead.


#306

The distortion is eliminated in v5, the team will keep optimizing the lenses and reviewing the visual quality as a whole.
Yes, the following months will be crucial. We will share the progress of M1, details of testing and the roadshows in March.


#307

“Im at a loss as to backers that insist the information is not enough and want more on why and how on every single minor point in detail…”

Agreed, if they want to know every single point, join the development team :wink:


#308

I’m falling down my chair with this update… (well, not really, I expected a high probability for bad news like this…).

My main concern is lenses and my understanding is what Pimax has called “fine tuning” since weeks (which many here have understood as “improving quality”) is in fact cost reduction which results in a reduced image quality (compared to v2/v3) + a lot of new issues, issues directly induced by this lens change for cost reduction, issues that were not existing before with v2/v3 and which now need investing time and money and we are not even granted those issues can/will be fixed.

What makes me really upset is my current understanding is Pimax used optimized lenses for promoting the headset kickstarter knowing they won’t be able to keep such high quality lenses for production, because they cost too much or maybe can’t even be produced using automated tools.

This would mean the headset would have been falsed advertised, using a best case scenario (expensive handmade optimized lenses) which they perfectly knew they couldn’t use for mass production and perfectly knew this would make the v2/v3 heasets demonstrated for the kickstarter not reflecting at all the quality of what will be mass produced later.

Is this the case Pimax ?

I’m not a VR lens expert but from what I have read on this subject going from thick to thinner fresnel lenses WHILE KEEPING THE QUALITY OF THE THICKER LENSE is precisely the huge optical challenge that even big companies like htc, oculus, and all the makers of the windows MR headsets were NOT able to solve. Are you guys believing Pimax is going to make this happen within the few weeks they have till mass production begins ? With all the other induced issues which they also have to solve on top of that ? Don’t you see coming the probability of a mass produced pimax 8K which would be significantly lower quality than the v2/v3 shown during the tours ?

Those thinner fresnel lenses are what made oculus cv1 have a sweet spot not covering the whole fov + tons of godrays (contrary to the DK2 using thicker non-fresnel lenses), they are what made htc vive having an even narrower sweet spot and its own light reflection issues, they are what made ALL the WMR headsets have a very narrow sweet spot.

The very large sweet spot (some v2/v3 reviewers even reported no blur over the whole fov) and the lack of godrays (many reports for that too) were 2 aspects which played a huge role in my decision to participate in this kickstarter and I never expected nor have heard from Pimax at the time of this KS that the final product could have significantly lower quality, with a more limited sweet spot than what was shown to the public during the tour and with light reflection that were also not present during the tour.

Have you, Pimax, used such a trick to help the KS money come in by using an optimized lens you perfectly knew you couldn’t use for mass production ? In this update you only tell us “we have gone to thinner lenses and that’s what explains the issues reported from the CES” but you don’t say a word about the quality you are targeting for the mass produced units and if you target AT LEAST the same quality than the v2/v3 you used to promote the product and the KS.

This is what makes me not confident because with the v2/v3 you have shown a prototype with very few issues, leading many people to think you were already very close to be able to mass produce it, and now you have all those NEW issues to solve ? Some of which you admit you are not even sure to understand where they come from ? Who would put himself such workload on his shoulders, with lot of new issues to solve to be able to go to mass production when the previous prototype was that close to the expected quality from the end consumers, if it was not because you perfectly knew you could not and will not mass produce such a previous prototype due to cost or even you knew you technically could not do it ?

I have this bad taste in my mouth production difficulties and even production PLANS have been hidden to backers by you, Pimax. Facts and your communication are reinforcing the belief Pimax perfectly knew they could not produce the v2/v3 how it was built (especially lenses), that you didn’t knew (at best…) what quality you could achieve with your so called “optimized” thinner lenses (optimized for cost, but then concerning quality…), and that you consciously have hidden this information to the public knowing it would (or at least could) break the KS momentum.

The stupefaction from many backers when they discovered a CES headset with those many completely unexpected issues because they were not existing at all with previous prototypes and how you pimax handled and continue to handle this stupefaction by completely dodging those issues in the first update, then taking more than 2 weeks for this second update you could have made right away (this lens drawing… seriously ?), are supporting this theory you knew beforehand this would happen because you knew you could not go to mass production without significant changes, changes that were very likely to reduce image quality compared to v2/v3.

This update just tells us the new thinner lenses are the reason explaining many issues reported from the CES but nowhere I see you, Pimax, talking about the targeted quality you expect to reach with those new lenses.
You don’t tell us if you expect to obtain AT LEAST the quality level of the v2/v3 lenses.
You don’t tell us WHY you are doing this lens modification.
You don’t tell us if mass producing with the v2/v3 lens could EVEN be technically possible.

The new lens OBVIOUSLY added a SIGNIFICANT workload, DELAYING the production and implying a final quality that is still UNKNOWN with some issues we are not even sure they will be solved with the source of some of those issues not even identifyed.

So the question I would like you, Pimax, to answer is: are you doing this lens change because you think you can reach higher quality than v2/v3 AND this would be worth the (significant) effort of solving the issues this change implies, and with all the delay and uncertainty you “really will” be able to solve those new issues, or are you doing this lens change because you have NO OTHER CHOICE, because there is no way the v2/v3 lens could be used for mass production because it costs too much or can’t even be produced with automated tools and are only possible handmade ?


#309

I noticed you started calling it ATW and last time it was ASW. That’s concerning to me. Like, a lot.


#310

I think you are reading too much into what has happened here. The previous prototypes were not perfect. They are still developing the headset. Making changes to try and improve things that were still not where they wanted them to be will invariably lead to mis-steps along the way. That is totally normal in the development process. You just normally wouldn’t hear about it in the development of most products. They can’t find out what works and what doesn’t without making these kind of iterations along the way.


#311

It seems that the lenses are thinner, which would reduce their magnification. But that does not have to be bad, since it may be necessary to focus the image further away from the eyes, apart from reducing the weight of the lenses. In theory, a machine would allow a better finish of the lenses, as happens with its surface, that is now smoother. Can you clarify if this is why @xunshu?


#312

Thanks for the update, @xunshu.


#313

Thanks for the information, @xunshu.

I would recommend that all these changes be corrected and verified before sending the M1s to the testers; I mean including the texture of the lenses to eliminate the mirror effect, and the latest ergonomics to see how they fit with western faces. Pimax should sent both clothstrap and headstrap (better with earphone, even if is not working) for the same reason.

I understand that the lenses have been modified to separate them from the eyes and not to touch the eyelashes. Will there also be space for the glasses now?

What happened with the Brainwarp and the ASW?


#314

Thanks for the update! Things seems to be going better! Keep them coming!