Please clarify "We are now at the hardware mass production stage"


#61

I can see why you would like to get it, because you are of course impatient as we all are, and are a capable modder who may fix some of the issues for himself. And could assist Pimax in their efforts too.
But from a Pimax perspective, I can see why they don‘t want this to happen. They probably don‘t want to repeat the 4K approach, but release a better quality product because the 8K is their shot at VR greatness. The 4K would never have become that due to lack of 6DoF, but the 8K has everything it takes to be the next gen VR HMD.
If they release it now in its current state, reviews will talk about the great potential but also add a number of complaints why it sucks and is not ready for the consumers. I know some dedicated VR websites over here in Germany who are very sceptical of the 8K, and I know they will tear the 8K to shreds if it were released in such state. If the 8K is updated during the following months and ends up being in a much better shape, they will not care. Those who read their reviews will be convinced that the 8K is a work-in-progress thing they‘ll steer clear off because they want a plug & play device.
So if Pimax want the 8K to really blow away the entire VR community and get positive reviews, and it clearly seems to have that potential, then they should release it in a state which is free from major issues. It seems that this is their plan, and I think it is smart as long as we are talking of a couple of months and not a substantial delay, say release only in 2019.

But I could see the sense in having you get it into your hands now to help iron out the remaining kinks - as a nice side effect you would have the 8K at home… but I guess they would have to ask you to sign an NDA to be consistent in their approach and fair to the beta testers.

@xunshu: is this something you could consider ? This is not about beta testing, but about checking whether Pimax and Sjefdeklerk can agree to cooperate in the ongoing refinement of the 8K firmware & software. I believe he has proven his value in such process in the past.


#62

I feel like you nail my feelings on this eloquently. They are only going to get one shot at release press buzz, and frankly there is a negativity to press coverage as it is. At least while ergonomics are being tweaked let them get the software as far as they can with help of the testers


#63

I agree with you as well as with @sjefdeklerk:
I am impatient as well, and I’d like to get it as early as possible, especially, if there are only a couple of software issues left to be solved. I already like the 4K, I loved it already in its early state, and the 8K can’t be worse than the 4K, it simply must be better, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you concerning all those sceptical and bad news and threads about the 8K here in Germany: As soon as anybody held the prototypes in its hands in the past and was complaining about anything, almost everybody in those communities complained about it in the same way, even if he didn’t test it by himself… “Pimax will never get it done; Pimax never ever can’t be as good as Oculus or HTC” etc. And you’re right, when you say, that no single site would report or review the 8K a couple of months later again when all the last issues would be fixed.

Nevertheless, me too, I’d agree to any kind of NDA or whatsoever, if Pimax / @xunshu would offer me to get the 8K in its actual state as long as all hardware issues are fixed. I even wouldn’t mind about proper roomscale since I’d use it for positional tracking sitting in front of cockpit simulations only. So if positional tracking in cockpit simulations would work perfectly, it would be ok for me - I don’t have any benefit of waiting longer, as I’d never be able to do roomscale in my “PC corner” of my room - absolutely no room/space for that - sufficient to work to the PC and sit down, nothing more :wink:

So, yes, I’d behave absolutely the same way if proposed:
Signing an NDA
Receiving the 8K
Testing and gaming it with my games
Reporting to Pimax everything that works fine or buggy in this context

Of course, this won’t fit for everybody depending on the issues.
Which is why I’d prefer some kind of detailed information about them and perhaps the possibility for the bakers to decide, if they’d prefer to receive it now with NDA, or later.

:slight_smile:


#64

I’m glad someone asked this question… while I appreciate the latest upbeat statement from Pimax… it felt a bit empty without really addressing the most posing question… updated ETA!!! I think this is a fair question to ask… I can certainly wait longer but I do believe Pimax has a responsibility to the backers to provide their ETA. And unlike many… I know what the “E” stands for in ETA… and it’s NOT “promise”… it’s “ESTIMATED”.


#65

Hey Guys,

Thanks for your comments, you guys raised some valid points. What I think it comes down to is that you roughly have 2 types of users: On the on hand there’s the (probably average) user who just wants to game and just wants it to work. And on the other hand there are people like me and @elin77 above who are tweakers/modders. We don’t mind if there’s no manual or unexplained options in the software, we figure things out ourselves. We don’t mind if drivers crash, (some) games dont work, if setup is far from trivial and if the software in general is more alpha than beta.

So if the hardware is really ready but the software is not, then I think @Axacuatl’s idea is really good. If you don’t want reviews, release a batch to those early adaptors/tweakers/modders group and have us sign an NDA. This will work in Pimax’s favour in 3 ways:

  1. In general more happy community, everybody gets what they want
  2. More tester results for the programmers could lead to faster development. If problems are reported in an organized way, including hardware specs etc this WILL lead to faster problem solving.
  3. Ability to improve hardware imperfections before reviews. If a button comes off easily, a cable comes loose, things like that, you still have the ability to adjust production for the version that’s going to get reviews.

What do you think guys and @xunshu


#66

NO, no more freaking NDA. We sick of this. We want reviews with bads and goods.


#67

Well you’ve got to accept reality. If the reality is that the hardware is ready but the software is not, then you could explore options beyond just delaying the release. You can’t make everybody happy (and I’m sure you won’t ever be happy), but I think the suggested solution above has a lot of positive points.


#68

Honestly, there is mostly just speculation here at this point. The last founders update was nice but in the end we still don’t know anything concrete. I’d really hold off on thinking “oh this is is what’s holding us back” or some such.

I’m not even a backer (would’ve been if I’d known about this before) but I am eagerly awaiting the pre-orders.

Also, nice try with trying to get a unit early guys :stuck_out_tongue: face it - that’s not likely to happen at all. It would not be efficient for them, nor would it be fair to other backers, either.


#69

I agree with everything sjefdeklerk said here. I think some people just want the device now and will find no issue signing an NDA until the software is ready.


#70

There are two different approaches being offered here:

  • my suggestion was to give it to Sjef under NDA, as he has vast experience already with 4K bugfixing
  • Sjef’s extension of my suggestion to give it to every backer, who claims he is a modder and signs an NDA

I tend to agree that Pimax will not consider Sjef’s suggestion, because let’s face it, almost every backer will think “hey, if the hardware is fixed anyhow, and the rest will be updated by firmware /software pacthes, let’s get the unit today rather than in some months even if I may not use it”. So I think the only reasonable way to do it is to combine the two suggestions:

Identify a couple of seriously talented & willing modders amongst the backers, and offer this early access under NDA deal to them. That would also limit the risk of an information leak.


#71

Wear do i sighn ,at this point aslong as the screens work well with the lens it could be held together with safty clip :upside_down_face:


#72

But, isn’t that exactly what the first 10 beta backers did? And what those preliminary business customers are already doing also? Why do it more? Depending on customs, it could take ages for them to even receive it; it would take time and effort from Pimax folk that should be used better imho.


#73

Well like you said, the only reason for Pimax not to release it right now is that they don’t want reviews for the unit that’s not final. They don’t want people to read in 6 months about issues’s that are solved long ago. Well if you can fix that with an NDA, then why not release it to everybody who wants it right now? If the hardware is ready of course (and I don’t doubt Pimax here)


#74

The 10 backers did a thorough review of the M1. What I am advocating for Sjef and other modders to do is rather step in in the execution of the improvements of the issues, which the beta testers found. Some of the beta testers will not be able to mod the firmware, so I think this is a distinctly different job description. But yes, if the modders come accross other/new issues, sure, they should flag those too.

@sjefdeklerk if 5,000 backers sign NDA’s and get their units, no chance that you could prevent some or even many of them to leak. It would be almost impossible for Pimax to track down who leaked. And - too many friends being invited by the backers to have a look at the new toy. The mindset of the backers would not understand, appreciate the meaning of the NDA the same way as if it were you and say a handful of others. You have to factor in human psychology - if it is with 5,000 others you don’t feel it is truly confidential any longer.


#75

But does that matter? The thing is that they don’t want prospect buyers to see youtube video’s, magazine reviews etc from a half year ago where they talk about issue’s that don’t exist anymore. NO youtuber or magazine will ever break the NDA and do a full video/review, given a well written NDA. Way too dangerous, they could get into serious problem.

Of course somebody might leak stuff to reddit, that might happen too now and it did happen with the LA conference, but who cares about this? That’s not what this is about I think.


#76

I would love the chance to tinker with the headset, for sure.


#77

I think a lot of us. That in combination with an NDA and a contract that specifies you wont receive ANY support until they deem the product ready for the masses, but are very welcome to help out hunting bugs in both hardware and software, then I think this could be a big win for the community and Pimax.


#78

Don’t think a couple thousand people can hold an NDA without things slipping through their mouths of them leaking info about it or them making a fake account on reddit using a vpn so they spill the beans. We already got like 3 people who broke the NDA on reddit after trying it 2 weeks ago lol. And maybe only 20-40 tried it…? So yeah not a good idea. I wholeheartedly agree with @Axacuatl. This could be the breakthrough in the vr industry, it could be the BEST headset out there, but it really can’t have any major issues, so it’s best if they wait it out and release an amazing product with little imperfections


#79

You are forgetting that all the Youtubers, who did not back would not feel hindered at all but would jump at the opportunity. They would simply say that they had a chance of a 3 h hands-on with an undisclosed backer, and would report every detail of their experience and Pimax cannot do anything because that Youtuber is under no obligation of confidentiality, and you cannot summon them to disclose the name of their source - it could even be somebody they do not know personally who turned u with the 8k & a laptop and disappeared after 3h so they really could not say who it was.

If I were Pimax, I would forget about that option - way too risky, and this would then of course piss off the beta testers big time.


#80

But that would just be reports on gossip and hearsay. I’m not sure about you but if I’m interested in some hardware I go read reviews. Mostly from magazines, but nowadays there are youtubers too to follow. That’s what Pimax cares about I think. Unverifiable reviews on reddit, youtubers who talk about gossip, I don’t think that that’s what the general prospect buyer consults when he’s interested to buy something.