Some thoughts about resolution, FOV, and comfort after comparing 5K+ and Index

opinion

#151

Yes, our perceptions clearly differ from person to person.

Years ago, we had a “discussion” at the office as to why I needed an 85 Hz monitor, since it was “no different” than a 60 Hz monitor (except the 85 Hz option was more expensive).

I floored my coworkers when I was able to discern whether a CRT monitor was running at 60, 75, or 85 Hz, with 100% accuracy after numerous tests (and it only took me a second or so). Only one other person could distinguish 60 from 85 Hz (and couldn’t recognize 75 Hz at all (~50%, basically he was guessing). I did get my 85 Hz monitor upgrade. Honestly, 60 Hz gave me a headache, too.

Luckily, a 60 Hz LCD monitor doesn’t have the same issue, since my 4K monitor is 60 Hz.


#152

It’s not that I don’t believe you, I’m confused. You are directly contradicting Valve and everything I have read on this topic so far. If it was 2-3% or max 5% I would have accepted is as possible. So for now I’m just reading what everybody else is adding to the discussion. You need to admit that your statement against Valve’s is is a situation that requires some more scrutiny. I’m also not saying you are lying, I’m just not sure about the parameters in your experiment. I also didn’t understand your experiment with the distortions yesterday, but this discussion has too many topics at once and it is a bit hard to follow them all.


#153

Haha. Good old times. But yeah with LCD it’s not a problem, I can watch a 60 hz LCD monitor without problems. But CRT gave me instant headaches. I would be fine at minimum 85 hz though.

Weren’t you comparing to og Vive? Per discussion above, Index and og Vive have both 110 degrees horizontal. Vive Pro has about 95 degrees horizontal.


#154

Yes, this is exactly what I said - the Index and the OG Vive have the same FOV and the Pro has a smaller horizontal because of the bumps on the sides. Was always annoyed by them - giving a somewhat square view, but didn’t know that it is because of the panel size.


#155

I will appreciate your input for any headset you own. I wrote I already have the data for Index, but I would like to have at least one other sample. For Vive Pro, Reverb, or Odyssey I have none. Running the tool is easy, and I am interested in the JSON output. Anyway, if you need any help with the tool, just let me know.


#156

I ran it with the Vive pro and the index:

hmdq version 1.0.0 - collecting OpenVR headset characteristics in no time
  Current time: 2019-08-14 19:07:04
  hmdq version: 1.0.0
Output version: 3
    OS version: 10.0.17763.678
OpenVR runtime: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\SteamVR
OpenVR version: 1.6.10

Device enumeration:
    Found dev: id=0, class=1, name=HMD
    Found dev: id=1, class=4, name=TrackingReference
    Found dev: id=2, class=4, name=TrackingReference

[0:HMD]
    1000 : TrackingSystemName = "lighthouse"
    1001 : ModelNumber = "Index"
    1002 : SerialNumber = "*****"
    1003 : RenderModelName = "generic_hmd"
    1005 : ManufacturerName = "Valve"
    1006 : TrackingFirmwareVersion = "1564435334 watchman@ValveBuilder02 2019-07-29 FPGA 538(2.26/9/2) BL 1555018550"
    1007 : HardwareRevision = "product 34 rev 21.65.9 lot 2000/0/0 0"
    2002 : DisplayFrequency = 120
[1:TrackingReference]
    1000 : TrackingSystemName = "lighthouse"
    1001 : ModelNumber = "Valve SR Imp"
    1002 : SerialNumber = "*****"
    1003 : RenderModelName = "lh_basestation_valve_gen2"
    1005 : ManufacturerName = "Valve Corporation"
    1006 : TrackingFirmwareVersion = "3002"
    1007 : HardwareRevision = "Valve Corp., 1004, 0.0, FB913021B8 V001017-20.A "
    4006 : ModeLabel = "1"
[2:TrackingReference]
    1000 : TrackingSystemName = "lighthouse"
    1001 : ModelNumber = "Valve SR Imp"
    1002 : SerialNumber = "*****"
    1003 : RenderModelName = "lh_basestation_valve_gen2"
    1005 : ManufacturerName = "Valve Corporation"
    1006 : TrackingFirmwareVersion = "3002"
    1007 : HardwareRevision = "Valve Corp., 1004, 0.0, FB913013E8 V001017-20.A "
    4006 : ModeLabel = "2"

Recommended render target size: {2704, 3004}

Left eye HAM mesh:
     original vertices: 99, triangles: 33
             mesh area: 24.88 %

Left eye head FOV:
    left:       -54.57 deg
    right:       42.07 deg
    bottom:     -53.93 deg
    top:         54.51 deg
    horiz.:      96.64 deg
    vert.:      108.44 deg

Right eye HAM mesh:
     original vertices: 99, triangles: 33
             mesh area: 24.88 %

Right eye head FOV:
    left:       -41.98 deg
    right:       54.64 deg
    bottom:     -53.91 deg
    top:         54.46 deg
    horiz.:      96.61 deg
    vert.:      108.37 deg

Total FOV:
    horizontal: 109.21 deg
    vertical:   108.37 deg
    diagonal:   114.12 deg
    overlap:     84.05 deg

View geometry:
    left panel rotation:     0.0 deg
    right panel rotation:    0.0 deg
    reported IPD:           69.9 mm
hmdq version 1.0.0 - collecting OpenVR headset characteristics in no time
  Current time: 2019-08-14 19:09:47
  hmdq version: 1.0.0
Output version: 3
    OS version: 10.0.17763.678
OpenVR runtime: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\SteamVR
OpenVR version: 1.6.10

Device enumeration:
    Found dev: id=0, class=1, name=HMD
    Found dev: id=1, class=4, name=TrackingReference
    Found dev: id=2, class=4, name=TrackingReference

[0:HMD]
    1000 : TrackingSystemName = "lighthouse"
    1001 : ModelNumber = "VIVE_Pro MV"
    1002 : SerialNumber = ""
    1003 : RenderModelName = "generic_hmd"
    1005 : ManufacturerName = "HTC"
    1006 : TrackingFirmwareVersion = "1526689969 watchman@runner-watchman 2018-05-18 FPGA 531(2.19/7/2) BL 1513896911"
    1007 : HardwareRevision = "product 133 rev 2.0.6 lot 2000/0/0 0"
    2002 : DisplayFrequency = 90
[1:TrackingReference]
    1000 : TrackingSystemName = "lighthouse"
    1001 : ModelNumber = "Valve SR Imp"
    1002 : SerialNumber = ""
    1003 : RenderModelName = "lh_basestation_valve_gen2"
    1005 : ManufacturerName = "Valve Corporation"
    1006 : TrackingFirmwareVersion = "3002"
    1007 : HardwareRevision = "Valve Corp., 1004, 0.0, FB913013E8 V001017-20.A "
    4006 : ModeLabel = "2"
[2:TrackingReference]
    1000 : TrackingSystemName = "lighthouse"
    1001 : ModelNumber = "Valve SR Imp"
    1002 : SerialNumber = ""
    1003 : RenderModelName = "lh_basestation_valve_gen2"
    1005 : ManufacturerName = "Valve Corporation"
    1007 : HardwareRevision = "Valve Corp., 1004, 0.0, FB913021B8 V001017-20.A "
    4006 : ModeLabel = "1"

Recommended render target size: {2704, 3004}

Left eye HAM mesh:
     original vertices: 90, triangles: 30
             mesh area: 20.20 %

Left eye head FOV:
    left:       -53.45 deg
    right:       45.30 deg
    bottom:     -54.25 deg
    top:         53.44 deg
    horiz.:      98.74 deg
    vert.:      107.69 deg

Right eye HAM mesh:
     original vertices: 90, triangles: 30
             mesh area: 20.20 %

Right eye head FOV:
    left:       -45.39 deg
    right:       53.35 deg
    bottom:     -54.15 deg
    top:         53.51 deg
    horiz.:      98.74 deg
    vert.:      107.66 deg

Total FOV:
    horizontal: 106.80 deg
    vertical:   107.59 deg
    diagonal:   110.29 deg
    overlap:     90.69 deg

View geometry:
    left panel rotation:     0.0 deg
    right panel rotation:    0.0 deg
    reported IPD:           68.7 mm


#157

So 107 degrees for the Vive pro horizontal vs 109 degrees for the Index. The real FoV for the Vive Pro is quite a bit lower, last time I measured with Oscar RoV it was about 95 degrees horizontal. Also I’ve switched 3 times again between Vive Pro and Index to confirm but the FoV really is indeed about 15% bigger on the Index.

So if your data is correct, then the Vive Pro is rendering way too much data, which it isn’t even displaying.


#158

Ok since i was curious, I just bought the latest RoV tool to confirm. And indeed, Vive Pro visible horizontal FoV is about 95 and the Index about 109. Not sure why your tool reports a much higher FoV for the Vive Pro, @risa2000, are you sure it’s correct? If it’s correct then HTC is really bad at writing software, rendering 15% too much, quite a waste of GPU power.

That’s nice and all, but the discussion was if there was any difference between the Vive Pro and the Index, not between the og Vive and the index.


#159

man dies from falling out of window whilst wearing vr headset. Headset survives unscathed. News at 11.


#160

really you cant find one? I doubt that.


#161

Fortunately the window was closed. Both headset & user are reported live & well unscathed . :beers::joy::+1::sparkles:


#162

what? most of what you said there makes no sense?

don’t agree. Just like the Nintendo Gameboy its a portable version of a home based system. There will always be a market for that. Just like with the gameboy the graphics arent going to be as good as its big brother but that is outweighed by the portability.
A good amount of people who already own “Home” headsets have bought the quest as well. And I know people who are only interested in VR because the quest exists.

.

I don’t get it, having joysticks on the controllers makes it a gaming system? What? So what does that make the Vive?

Heres an excellent video explaining why they would choose to do this, i have skipped to the part, its called “The Enthusiasts Trap”


Bottom line is there are plenty of companies willing to throw new expensive headsets out the door, but if you keep selling to the same 1% of people the market cannot sustain itself.

Also the more the mainstream audience gets into this the more headsets there are out there and that means larger developers will take interest and make better games.


#163

haha to “remain competitive” they would have to have started being competitive in the first place.

That can’t happen until they have a complete Kit ready to buy.

Wheres my damn controllers and base stations and DAS!.

Its funny seeing Pimax on the show floor at e3 showing off their latest 5 headsets each with htc vive DAS clearly in use.


#164

So does a rash, doesn’t mean I want one.


#165

It’s true though. I own quite a few already. What I like most are games with great graphics, nice scenery, shooters where I can just blow up enemies without having to solve all kinds of puzzles, let alone the need to have to figure out what the game is even about or make a study of how to operate everything or figure out which tool to combine with which tool or find out where i even need to go. So I love games like Arizona sunshine and titan slayer 2, but not fallout 4. If you have any suggestions let me know


#166

Sounds like you might like Serious Sam. Very straightforward FPS shooter. You probably have played it already though.


#167

Please let us know what you think of the index controllers


#168

I am not sure either, but the calculation uses data directly from OpenVR. So the only explanation would be that much more is obscured by the lenses frame. In other words, the app renders much bigger FOV than the headset (lenses) can display to the user.


#169

What I understand after reading all of this is that the design of the headsets allows you to get the same field of view at the screens for both the OG Vive and the Pro but because the screen on the Pro is smaller you get those black zones on the sides when using the thin cover.
What Valve have done with the Index (as per their own explanation) is to change the design in a way that would give access to this wider FOV out of the box - without the need of mods or custom cushions. So FOV equal between the OG Vive and the Index and a bit smaller for the Pro - because of the screen size (5% is within the expected) seems logical.


#170

Worth keeping in mind, here, is that with HMDs where the view is being cropped by the edges of the screens, like the Vives and the Index, so that you get a semi-circle taking a bite out of it (due to the pincushion distortion of the lenses), the rendered FOV includes the “peaks” of the “saddle shape” field of view.

…so whilst I personally count the FOV at its “waist”, where it is its narrowest, there is in fact a degree or two more, jutting out (EDIT: as little “spikes”) above and below the “notch”.