This moderator's funny ways to see things :)


#1

Moving the discussion started in Pimax 8K M1 Issues leak , to avoid being off topic and annoy uninterested users, and since this thread opened by Heliosurge was intended for the sole purpose of back his “supposed” claims against me…

I’ll set it straight this time, because this thread of yours has become a real funpark fairground, just for the sole purpose to try to contest my argumentations with tons of stupid links and articles that have very little for explaining what you claimed to dispute in my discussions, many of which are full of inaccuracies, hype, or just junk written by people without real knowledge of the topic.

Most of all, you accused me of not give any evidence supporting my claims, good…but you have not given it to us for your claims neither, and linked a bunch of hype material and links that in your fantasies should support your claims above (In your own words you admitted that some, like nanoled, you’re just calling it this way just for convenience, and used the word “SHOULD” , hence you’re only speculating).

IJARCCE Journal 5-11-2016

This comes from a respectable source intended for researchers, STUDY it carefully, as it is a white paper containing brief but precise and detailed technical information on OLED tech, not junk from gaming/computer magazines and speculations by young geeks…

I’ll do some quick quote from it for you and the many lazy readers here:

PAGE 155 Chapter VIII Step 5: “OLED response times are 1000 times faster than LCD providing 10 microseconds response time.

Not sure what you’re referring to with that “LG still has a lot of work to do”… but both LG and Sony have already overcome most of that technology problems, notice that in the document I linked, it is stated that one of the most common problem with oleds is life expectancy, rated around 30.000 hours back in 2014, is today almost double that amount, that translates in approximately 5-6 YEARS expected longevity on a continuous 24h cycle (Never turned off).

Thanks @MReis , a really valid study. (Tough I’m not sure your intentions were for the real benefit of people’s understanding…since you admittedly love flaming, but at least, you’re one of the few who seems to have understood a bit, and tried to elaborate in the right direction) I was familiar about studies like that one, and talked about it a little in my past interventions in this forum. Even that I already did two past threads to hint at some aspects of it, as we have seen, almost NO ONE has read or even try to understand, even that….some like this moderator and other Naysayers take the liberty to comment and deny out of everything, without any technical and precise counter argumentation to the points I made, but just bullying out with rude attitude, or just by keep posting junk, pretending it is supporting their claims, when in fact is just fantasy or arrogance (and even have the hypocrisy to say at the start of a thread “leave your ego out” , wow….of course I’m the big ego guy here…okay…

Even tough the above linked study is not properly focused on measuring response times related to the gaming side, but only the effort to obtain a certain range and type of visual stimulation using commercial LCD technology, for the assessment of psychological effects, mostly using specific white-black strobe screens and effects that were previously done using CRT screens, it is using exactly the same method and equipment that I’m familiar with for photodiode measurement , and they rate it at around 7/7,5 ms on some of the best gaming LCD (medium values, and, for the lazy readers and not so much tech savvy people, since the paper is somewhat heavy and not intended for beginners …there are even the oscilloscope measurement graph tables showing these values) that’s almost the same amount I personally measured, but keep in mind that these values are GREY-TO-GREY transitions (I.e. from a black pixel to full white), and when real world application screens are used, with fast changing multiple color images like in gaming, these values could easily go up to as much as 16ms , which translate into a 60 to 75 Hz possibility (give a few more, if overdriven/overclocked panels are used, and software to bypass all the limiting factors, are used…like in their tests).
Notice that they are using special written software for the test measurement, probably running on Linux systems or a very basic OS, bypassing everything possible to avoid the interference of the many interfering factors both sw and hw side (exactly what I said in a reply to JeoffVader).

The rest is done using G-Sync technology to “push” the frames from the graphic card framebuffers (dual) as fast as possible to the “144 Hz” monitor, but it doesn’t mean all the frames will be shown in full by that monitor, frame loss/merging is most likely possible and some flickering/tearing will result even with G-Sync (I’m talking about a gaming scenario….not the test they are doing in that document, that is just a type of very simple and quick image strobing), and the 1000Hz control camera will catch even the slightest frame miss or anomaly, providing it is a professional shutter with no filters activated.

This and more already mentioned factors in my past interventions are just SOME of the reasons why I say TRUE 1 ms on LCD is just a myth, or just partial truth because it applies only in some precise circumstances, not everyday performance, if you have some valid counter-argumentation @Heliosurge, then post and reply in a coherent point-by-point way, and with your knowledge from your mouth, please avoid posting other junk links taken from computer magazines, Wikipedia (that is well known to be totally sponsored and unaffordable) as it serves nothing but to show you’re not having such knowledge, but just looking for something on google that barely resemble a clue to yourself…and anyway we have been already submerged with all your links coming from the most funny places.

And, if it’s not enough for you…even that article YOU linked here: Pimax 8K M1 Issues leak (https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/144hz-monitors-refresh-rate-motion-blur-explained-29481805) plus in this same thread, to supposedly contradict what I say….just confirms all my points, I’ll quote the related text here, FOR EVERYONE TO SEE, because you have shown incapacity of reasoning, or just negligence or not reading things at all.

Quotes from the trustedreviews.com article YOU linked:

  • “OLED displays, on the other hand, are purely electronic, making them several orders of magnitude faster – a typical OLED panel has a response time of just 0.01ms.”

AND

  • “Something to keep in mind when looking at monitor response times is there isn’t an accepted standard of measurement. It’s generally measured by a figure called grey-to-grey time, which refers to the time it takes for a pixel to transition from grey to white and back again, rather than all the way from black to white to black, which takes longer.”

AND

  • “As such, you can sometimes end up with situations where the monitor may say it has a 4ms response time, for instance, but it can look far slower than that.”

And you used that article to confute my points, when in fact it was EXACTLY what I was saying ?!?!?!?

Dude….seriously….are you mad or what ??? And I should be pointed the big ego guy here ?...

You just failed big time, my friend.

I’ll try to explain in brief what I think you are referring to, with your speculations regarding these two technologies, since you don’t have showed us anything that is exactly as you stated, only vaguely similar or even contradictory.

Microled: This is an already marketed technology by Samsung for improving the wall screen panels, they are modular panels that make it possible to assemble a range of large to giant panels, like the ones used in music concerts, sports events and wall displays….this is just an improvement and miniaturization of the big led elements used in these modular panels that until now had very big pixel diodes, in fact when you go really close to these giant screens the image becomes very grainy and you easily see the individual diodes, but at some meters distance they look very good. The micro led implementation has just made possible to reduce pixel size to almost an invisible size, thus permitting very high resolutions, huge luminance, 8K and above class screens ideal to substitute cinema curtains for projection. But these have nothing to do with computer, Tv, or phone screens, it’s intended for big displays.

I even cited this technology well before you added it to your quote here, proof: ( Pimax 8K M1 Issues leak ) but of course you don’t read anything, pretend to forget, or just made it your own…great example of intelligence and integrity indeed…

Nanoled: What you are referring to here are probably just the upcoming OLED displays that have a miniaturized new type of pixel matrix to the nanometer scale, like the VR screens recently showed by LG/Google and others, these solve most of the problems that currently plague the adoption of this technology in VR because of the pixel matrix not being small and dense enough, solving one of the few remaining problems, and leading to a sure and definitive adoption of these panels in VR, that will have no screen door effect anymore, because of the very dense pixel matrix obtainable, up to 1500 Dpi and over, plus some other improvements, like better heat dissipation, even better response times, less power draw, etc….

Other than that, it has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with Qled and Samsung…. that is in itself a confusing way to call and brand them.

The only possible thing you could possibly cite about Qled (but haven’t done it…neverthless) is what Sony is currently researching, using a red, green and white Oled pixel matrix coupled with a blue Qled pixel, because the blue Oled are still suffering from shorter life expectancy than the other colors, but I don’t think this will ever come out as a commercial solution, because….who really cares about panels lasting more than 8-10 years of medium use operation time ??? In 10 years we will be having almost Star Trek tech available…

Done, happy now ? Even that I seriously doubt you will take the time to read the above material and make discernment out of it…

Plus, you’ve showed to have the tendency to show up and open mouth every time a subject is discussed, even when you have no proficiency or knowledge at all, looks you just want to make your omnipresence in the forum constantly being felt…fine…as long as you think this is your “personal” forum where Pimax could just announce their products…so much about ego related allusions from you…

I want to remember you what the definition of a MODERATOR is…. Simply moderating the discussions and assure they go on in a smooth way, NOT constantly say what you think about anything and steering the course of it to make your own views/convictions appear cool…. Something you showed not to do at all, since you even engaged in a flame with me TWO times and rushed seeking for other users support to back and strength your claims, and just keeping giving neverending “likes” (often even to posts that hint at your own contradictions), please do me a favor, never give me any “like” again as I don’t care at all being liked or not, either in general and from an individual like you.

You don’t even intervened all the times when the reaction to something I posted was offensive and bullying, where that you as moderator should have done it, but as it is commonly said…he who stays silent agrees… Fine…. Obviously in your views the “Golden Rule” mentioned by @George doesn’t applies to me and people who say something you don’t like….

And now that I showed you the proofs you so much asked, from serious, affordable, undisputed sources, let me say you that I think that what are you doing here….regarding this ongoing subject and dispute about panel tech, is just spreading myths and inaccurate informations, and that this is only damaging to both the forum and the community and you have the responsibility, as a Moderator, for what you put out, because inexperienced people or just hype gamer geeks will adopt this inaccurate information.

If it was about minor things like announcing some new Nvidia card, some speculated future tech or other fun subjects, it would have been okay and fun to point out and just hype about… but since what we’re talking is way more deep of a technical discussion who has wide implications (way more than most of you here think…) and that you’re pretending to talk it from a level you DON’T have, this is just bad from a moderator, or just very irresponsible.

And since you had resorted to suspend my forum account in the last 4 days, just to silence me, and even deleted the post where I made personal attacks to you (evidently it was too much embarrassing for your stung pride) in the “Pimax 8K M1 Issues leak” thread….let me say here that, just like @MarcoBalletta said once, you have to permanently ban me from here, if you want to silent me because I will never stop from pointing what I know is the truth and exposing the bullshit some say, when I see it.

And to anyone who have taken the habit to call me a trolling guy, I’ll just say one simple thing: “How many subjects you can number being part of my “supposed” trolling in this forum ??? ONE AND ONLY ONE….” , because I’ll never stick my nose in subjects I don’t know a shit about, or don’t have interest about, unlike some others here….but call me a troll if you like, and if it is trolling only on the bullshit some like to spread, then yes….I could very well be that type of troll, to your eyes only.

Good continuation and moderation, hopefully with a more discerning attitude and responsibility…


Display Tech: Now & upcoming Developments
Pimax 8K M1 Issues leak
#2

Oh…it is way more simple than that (and funny too…) , the reason was just Heliosurge suspended my account for some days to silence me :smirk:

Oh sure….of course, anyone with just a smartphone can do that… unfortunately, you know… it’s a pity that current modern smartphone software in the cameras MASK and eliminate the artifacts caused by the refresh of computer monitors you aim the camera to, and other things (a feature even largely advertised on the new iPhones and other phones), unless…of course you use a special written software, possibly running Linux on the smartphone. (Try pointing your iPhones at computer/Tv screens if you don’t believe me)

And to the contrary, the article posted by MReis is very informative, but of course you don’t have even taken a serious look at it, otherwise you hadn’t commented like this…

But to briefly reply you:

IJARCCE Journal 5-11-2016
Quoting this technology paper for researchers: PAGE 155 Chapter VIII Step 5 - “OLED response times are 1000 times faster than LCD providing 10 microseconds response time.”

This was back in 2014 !!

Yep, indeed….LCDs are just slightly slower, so much for your fair amount of understanding about display panels, plus the bullshit about the smartphone cameras, congrats !…

I don’t give a shit about having to be liked or credible to you…you lost my respect way before this day, when you replied to me discussing this same subject months ago, contesting it with just superficial views and narrow minded attitude, and now replying like an elementary school bully, just putting some common place labels to discredit and make the other part look a conspiracy theory nut, implying that for you the Golden Rule obviously don’t applies to me…fine, you will be treated in the same manner…

Doesn’t surprise me…since these standard reactions often come from people who don’t have a clue about the most wide life subjects, and fear it, thus their just reacting and calling people that way.

But let me tell you something to ponder on…with all the huge happenings and changes that have emerged in the last 10-15 years in every aspect of human life, be it political, weather, science, space discoveries, tech, physics (especially) and the so many things going wrong and worse every day and increasingly looking NOT being as most people have thought before….how is it possible that you still resort to these ways of quickly labelling people who have a widest view of life than you ?…. doesn’t surprise me you have chosen such a nickname for yourself, because the way you’re responding and acting shows you’re a brain dead human still walking, just waiting the day when you can definitely escape and disappear in your VRefuge alternate reality…you’re probably missing so many important aspects and revelations in life around you that you’re pretty soon going to have a rough, wild ride, when even more things become reality and commonly accepted VERY SOON and with ever increasing rate, that day you will find yourself having this face:

And it will probably take you years, just to catch up with all the info and reality you missed, and that you was not aware of, that your tinfoil friend was just telling you “like a nut”…

Have fun with the experience…


#3

Actually I did suspend your account after several users flagged several of your posts due to you being off topic & incoherrent.


#4

People with still a functioning brain and attention in reading, will decide who is the incoherent.

P.S. Incoherent has one R only…funny that a North American is writing the word in the wrong way…


#5

Who the fuck has time for all this drama

aintnobodygottimeforthis.gif


#6

It’s fine…as long as you don’t care being having to talk to people with mental disorders or incapacity to comprehend what you’re telling them. :smirk:

If that’s the only thing you have time to do in your spare time…good, it’s your choice…


#7

Thanks for valuing my post.

The first paper you post is a nice read, and does use 10 ms lcd as a base to compare response time - it does not list the source or mention it is the max and most papers listed as references are 2006 or older and are most likely not to consider the current improvents on any of the technology’s.

I never said that OLED is not superior, but LCD is not Stuck at 60hz even if it is the common base, there has been advancements and since you do not fully comprehend to the technical aspects they base there research on they are using LCDs for a scientific study which relies on their mentioned refresh rate of the imposed image.

so please stay open to all advancements even if it is not the superior technology or your favorite.

I guess if we do not get a 2018 paper which is open to both techs we won’t be able compare the techs fairly, any one having access to such papers or research, that would be awesome ? Maybe even the lcd or oled used it n the PiMax HMDs?

And staying Kind never hurts…


#8

Let’s stick with Topic. If you choose to have a discussion instead of attacking me or other users. We could have an awesome debate to improve each other’s understanding of points of view.

I have never said oled doesn’t have key advantages over lcd based tech.

However like @MReis has said the papers comparing them are old 2006. My old hp 23" Monitor had something like 16ms response+ (don’t remember) it of course couldn’t compare at all.

But that is a quite outdated originally something like a $1000 monitor. Great for it’s day but can’t compare yo today’s Lcd panels.

But on Microled here is some articles for your review. It gives some basic specs. This is out noe as of June by the looks of thr other articles for consumers.

Jan 2018

6 Days ago. Microled vs Oled

April 2018 Samsung QD in Microled research (mentions research in QD mixed with Oled)

With Lcd tech the new advances while may not compare to a proper Oled like the Dell Monitor that isn’t being released. Refresh limits of 2006 is not valid.

Using that wonderful Link for Testufo can demonstrate.

Yes I am familiar with the many distrations in Display Specs.

Ie Blk-2-Blk is much better than using Grey-2-Grey.

Good quality Computer Monitors cost good money compared to TV monitors that are twice there size. Decent computer monitors feature better componets higher native refresh & more.

A tn 1ms lcd monitor still slow to Oled by what 100x?

But Oled does have applications that are not suited for it as repported in the above Articles screen burnin.

So what do say try again mutually civil with links to validate points of view? Researching via articles is not parroting on anyone’s part. Posting counter articles can help to enhance understanding as one may not have seen the research the other is talking about. You can’t expect folks to go by your word or mine or anyone’s. People are often eager to read & learn new things if your approach is friendly.


#10

I could very well agree with the general lines you’re suggesting to take for the discussion in future.

But dude…AGAIN YOU’RE repeating what I just explained you, both here and MANY TIMES before !!! Even in these last links you added !!!

So, at least…Stop contesting things and making me appear like a fool because what I’ve said until now is exactly what you keep linking, even if it’s clear to anyone that I’ve already said it.

All this above is exactly this I said already:

Lillo:
Microled: This is an already marketed technology by Samsung for improving the wall screen panels, they are modular panels that make it possible to assemble a range of large to giant panels, like the ones used in music concerts, sports events and wall displays….this is just an improvement and miniaturization of the big led elements used in these modular panels that until now had very big pixel diodes, in fact when you go really close to these giant screens the image becomes very grainy and you easily see the individual diodes, but at some meters distance they look very good. The micro led implementation has just made possible to reduce pixel size to almost an invisible size, thus permitting very high resolutions, huge luminance, 8K and above class screens ideal to substitute cinema curtains for projection. But these have nothing to do with computer, Tv, or phone screens, it’s intended for big displays.
Lillo:
Nanoled: What you are referring to here are probably just the upcoming OLED displays that have a miniaturized new type of pixel matrix to the nanometer scale, like the VR screens recently showed by LG/Google and others, these solve most of the problems that currently plague the adoption of this technology in VR because of the pixel matrix not being small and dense enough, solving one of the few remaining problems, and leading to a sure and definitive adoption of these panels in VR, that will have no screen door effect anymore, because of the very dense pixel matrix obtainable, up to 1500 Dpi and over, plus some other improvements, like better heat dissipation, even better response times, less power draw, etc….

Even that you kept acting like it was not, and did an entire “nay ! nay ! nay!” farce, just to make me appear the idiot, while I’m not…so I will not simply grant you an easy exit and let you save face…because what you did is something VERY DEPLORABLE (or just mad…).

I demand that you make me your excuses for that.

Otherwise I can’t have respect for such a strange and anomalous attitude, ESPECIALLY FROM A MODERATOR.


#11

I know your having trouble seeing i am trying to A) Understand your point ir view & B) help you believe it or not.

Now I didn’t link a recent microled on being able to order them now in custom sizes for home use.

The link I did provide on microled vs oled does tell why microled is better than oled & matches everything except flaws of oled like burn in & sounds like will be more cost effective to make. & that Quantum Dot being looked into being used in both Microled & oled. However it does also say Samsung is not the only one working on microled.

Plus if we are agreed to have a mutually respectable conversation we need to start somewhere. Like I said that Testufo site you linked is awesome. Have you tried it with more recent displays?


#12

How was this discussion sparked? Was it about the suitability of LCD screens for VR? Because at 10ms, the response time would appear to be OK for 80-90Hz of the 8K.


#13

There was a misconception rhat lcd were limited to 60hz refresh & that only gimmicks used to make appear higher. Seems from what @MReis said this was based on really old research that hadn’t been updated since 2006 on oled vs lcd.


#14

NO…YOU stated that I said 60Hz while I have not said it NOWHERE, I kept repeating that LCD’S could go up to 75Hz and a little more than that !!! Look all my posts above and elsewhere !!! Now you even putting things on my mouth that I never said…

YOU’RE JUST MAD HELIOSURGE…keep going this trend to make me appear the fool…

You’re just burning on you own fuel because it is now black and white for all to see all the bullshit and irrational way you wrote multiple times.

I’LL BE A PAIN FOR LIFE, UNTIL YOU BAN ME…GUARANTEED.

And if you do, I won’t give a s**t because I don’t belong to a place like this anyway…

EDiTED for content. If you are requesting to be banned. I will honor your request. I do hope you choose to act better.


#15

Round and round and round and round…boh…like nothing was already said/explained until now…and round and round and round, and back to the start…and round…


#16

Ok. I don’t know anything about tech hardware wise. I hope you don’t mind @Lillo. Is LCD in your opinion feasible for VRsets? Or do you believe more in OLED or QLED? I am well aware I don’t know the difference at all. But if the discussion is going to be renewed, I hope to learn a bit or two about this screentech you both know about. I am open for information.


#18

Dude…I don’t care at all if VR has both LCD or OLED, both had their reasons to be used in there and both have had their usefulness, I myself have a Lenovo Explorer that is LCD and is really good and that goes up to nearly 80Hz (not the advertised 90Hz) with very little ghosting, very low SDE, decent colors (there’s even a short review in this forum I did of the headset) ; but clearly the OLED are better suited to be the next solution for these applications, anyone who has tried an Odyssey can tell you it’s no comparison, even there are still some low points like noticeable SDE, but this will be quickly forgotten on the new nanometer Oled screens (up to 1500 dpi) being prepared for market.

Qled ? Anything could happen…but going to use them, that are nothing more than LCD’s with better color accuracy and something a little more…makes sense ? Does not mean however that someone could adopt them…but I doubt it because Samsung is not giving the technology use to other manufacturers, exactly like their Oled panels…and prices it at ridiculous high amounts.


#19

If I understand correctly, for the current generation hardware, both LCD and OLED are good choices, but OLED has more future prospects than LCD. (for next generation hardware). But because OLED is expensive, we might end up with LCD screens that cannot be developed enough for 2nd gen HMDs? Please correct me if I am wrong, because I don’t know the difference. If my assumption is right, you say Pimax might be having a problem developing after LCD generation?


#20

George: I have never started such a thread on marketing facts…Heliosurge is the one often doing that and I am not interested in that anyway… my discussions here always cover technical aspects of it, deep technical aspects that I tried to hint and let people elaborate…

The point is another, is that Heliosurge at one point time ago has started just spinning things in a clear personal battle against me, denying both the reality and the facts continuously presented, even when affordable proof and sources were presented (but mostly…explained by my own mouth…) he keeps repeating the same things, over and over, in such a way that there’s no rationality, and that only insane psychopaths do… just ranting the same thing again and again even if it was what I myself was explaining (clearly he’s now only a drone in self defense mode), ears and eyes capped, with the only aim to cover his dumb ass failure in that useless flame (he himself started…) trying to divert it so to make it appear I’m the stupid and the one not understanding a thing when it’s exactly the opposite…and this is VERY DEPLORABLE from a Moderator.

If you just read carefully what was said and the material presented until now in this and other thread, and look at his replies, you will see what I mean…he just replies 90% of the time with just words that have nothing to reply to what I say, just empty…words, to the point that I once was beginning to suspect to talk to a poorly coded AI…

At any rate, the subject has now been covered more than enough for intelligent people to discern and understand if they feel the need for it, so I don’t need to add more, except if new informations until now not presented are needed or asked.

And I’m still expecting this dude’s public excuses !..


#21

Please. I don’t talk about Heliosurge here. I want to hear you, not him, on this subject. I try to understand, but maybe I am not technical enough to understand. I don’t know. If you are really deep into tech, and most of us are not, why do you try to convey your message? What is the core issue, that I obviously miss, that makes you persevere?


#22

Simply…THE TRUTH , I have years experience in this field, worked for four different companies, and will not let a non listening retard depict me like the fool here, after all the almost “tutoring” I did here…

Please George, I know you’re trying to help…or maybe calm the waters on my side and divert the attention from that, but what do you want me to tell more ? It has ALREADY been presented in such a way that even a middle school teenager would understand it…and anyway, to this point I don’t care anymore because no one is interested, most just want to burn their life and frustrations in a VR experience, or just rant and cry why Pimax still has not shipped them their headset…

I don’t care…if you want to understand, read what has been provided until now CAREFULLY, use the search feature for my older material, then if there is some real, serious and sincere interest in it…ask me privately , but please avoid asking the obvious or what has been already provided and explained (just like Heliosurge).

Peace.