Vive Pro, XTAL, StarVR One - is there something wrong with VR sector?


#21

i always thought it was a wrong claim in the faq, the animation with 200 diagonally made lot more sense


#22

We need the NDA released very fast…


#23

let’s do @asonkin65 a favor and get back on topic!

i think the problem in the Big FoV VR market is two fold.

  • on one side the display panels for mobiles don’t need to get more resolution but cheaper, so not so many research $ VR could benefit
  • on the other side the resolution gain possible in VR just can’t be matched with reasonably priced GPUs

As a result the whole burden to improve is rather on small enthusiast companies because big money spenders are shy of the investment, the addressable market to sell such VR headsets is couple of thousands but not millions

The only one that would take such a risk might be Sony again to push their PS5. The did a similar stunt with the PS4 and got quickly the biggest installed basis for VR-HMD. More than Oculus and all the mobile phone gadgets combined.

in a nutshell, all the small market players need to tinker their HMDs based on products and standards already available on the market. Not enough Hz or resolution or color or bandwidth or power or you name it … in a single package possible.


#24

Not exactly right.

eMagin is interested in consumer market - see http://emagin.com/industries/consumer/, or http://emagin.com/products/ for 2Kx2K display. The problem is that even after 3 years of announcement they still don’t have it.

Kopin is not interested in headset production, their Elf headset was a tech demo to see if anybody interested in buying their microdisplays. Again the problem is that with such small form factor 110 FOV is the maximum. They had a deal with Olightek for their 2Kx2K production in 2018, and move the production to the BOE JV with Olightek later. It just seems nobody is interested in it.

XTAL have 2560x1440 displays - this is the maximum current OLED resolution in production I can find. (and they call it 5K :slight_smile: - maybe it was not Pimax that started it?)

Starbreeze saying they don’t have SDE. Very possibly. But with such weird resolution and wide FOV they don’t have any fidelity either.


#25

Thank you, Mazi. You know what just happen? When I saw your post about mobiles, I though - hold on, my S8 display is something like 2960x1440 AMOLED so if S8 can run good games in such a resolution with a scaled down processing power (comparing to i9 CPU and 1080Ti) - so what is the problem with driving 2x4K rendering on a PC?

Ok, I then checked what resolution I am running on my S8 (S9 is the same) - and guess what? Samsung by default changing the resolution on your phone to 2220x1080 to save the battery. So anybody using S8 or S9 are running lower res on their phones without even knowing it… You have to manually change the resolution to 2960x1440 if you want it and you can not do it in power save mode!

EDIT: I had the S8 for more than a year and never realised it.


#26

I just skimmed through their last conference call. They’re currently mainly delivering to defense/ US Army. They’re claiming they want to diversify into consumer market indeed but are saying that they don’t expect the VR consumer market to grow quickly. I wouldn’t bet on these guys to come up with something fast.

Besides, like I said, I doubt their micro displays are any good for wide FoV


#27

IMHO the eMagin 2Kx2K display is very interesting because of it’s RGB striped pixels order (same as StarVR One) that Starbreeze claim has no SDE. Seems they just don’t have any large VR company interested in their tech… As a manufacturer they need something in the tens or hundreds thousands figure.

On the other hand the cost of microdisplays is huge, because of the tech used, it’s similar to making CPU. Plus the non-Fresnel lens cost is a bit too much for consumer market (I can only find the cost for OSVR wide FOV non-Fresnel lenses that are $2370 compared to $87 for normal OSVR aspherical lenses).


#28

Agreed but due to the very small form factor I highly doubt this will yield anything over 100 degrees FoV


#29

Indeed we will see real results. Because if the lens as you say only can see 50% of the screen the 5k should look worst than a psvr & og vive & oculus.

12751440 per eye instead of 25601440 per eye.

@xunshu the team should consider bringing a pimax 4k headset to the meet to demonstrate the improvements the 5k/8k have over your original headset.


#30

LG V30 has 6" 2880*1440 oled display. :beers::heart_eyes::+1::sparkles:

Razer Phone though while an IPS panel features 2560*1440 at 120hz & supports hdr (for netflicks).

Keep in mind with StarVR One like Psvr is using oled RGB. The Psvr is decent on negligible sde but you can see pixels. (I think if recall teardown it also has a dispersion filter also to reduce sde)


#31

That would solve all doubt indeed, very good suggestion!


#32

I’m starting to wonder about the real cost of all the lenses in mass production compared. The perfect lens and display combination seems to be the holy grail of designing a wide FoV headset and not a single competitor found a path to get reasonable priced high quality lenses from established manufacturers?
Maybe no path for economy of scale there?

And btw the claim of PimaxVR was they get displays optimized for VR on CLPL tech. Wouldn’t mean optimized also mean a form factor that would match usable display area to the lenses?


#33

I think the problem of stagnation in consumer vr tech is the same as the stagnation of -all- consumer tech right now which is that product research is increasing but tech research is ayinb as Tue latter is riskier and profits from consumer tech are becoming thinner in numerous locations due to wage stagnation. The best come from and are released in China instead of the US or Korea now as Chine has burgeoning consumer/middle class purchasing power. This is shrinking in the old market, the west.


#34

Yes, there are OLED displays that are higher resolution than StarVR One but they are not suitable for VR. I think the problem is that there are only a few of these manufacturers and they are not interested in VR at it’s current state. To get any sensible margin they need to manufacture them in hundred thousands figures.


#35

True enough on supply on 16:9 panels. The Xtal has Oled Qhd but caps at 70hz. While Vive Pro/Samsung Odyssy has 2x 1440*1600 these are not 16:9 ratio.

I do wonder what the full screen specs on Asus Rog smartphone. :heart_eyes:


#36

Were does this 50% come from??
And if using that you would need to do the same for the HMD compared.


#37

Well, everything is on the forum shattered between threads, but basically some testers removed the lenses, measured distance between lens and panel, put the lenses above a newspaper at that same distance and marked the part that could be seen through a lens and then measured that. It’s about half of the panel.

However @Heliosurge suggested that possibly errors were made. I can’t verify this of course since I don’t have the HMD myself. In theory errors could have been made. Also it could be that (at least) some HMD’s that Pimax sent out were botched. It’s confirmed that not all testers have the exact same hardware anyway.

Like Sweviver revealed, basically the Spanish tester group concluded, on basis of the specific hardware they have seen, that the lenses are sh*t and need to be redesigned. But the question here is if Pimax is even capable of making better lenses and if so, how much time this would take. This should be seen in relation to how people feel the lenses currently perform. If they can live with how the HMD currently performs, then it might be the best idea to just release it. I don’t know man, these are difficult decisions. At this point people are not expecting a perfect HMD anymore, so maybe some/most will feel the current version is good enough and should be released. I had wished that Pimax would have planned more time for each backer in Berlin, so they would get an honest and good impression. Now I’m not so sure if 5 minutes in a controlled setup will do.


#38

5 Min they will have to be pretty sure on what they want to focus on !


#39

Ok thanks for the info! I didn’t catch that one, just the “rumors” part in some thread.
I wish we would get more infos it is really annoying that nothing is really coming out, bothers me more than possible pitfalls …


#40

It look no anyone talk about idealens M8k
http://www.idealens.com/en/home/m8k

As I know this headset use high spec of gpu.

I ever thought that this headset has fov less than pimax, but may be not if it’s fov is horizontal (not sure).